High Phosphates - Help me troubleshoot!

[EricL]

So here's a brief rundown of what i have and the troubleshooting I've done and will do. Please help me realize what else i need to do!

Phosphates .64ppm for past 3 months
Nitrate/Nitrite/Ammonia - 0ppm
Alkalinity - 9.2dKH
Calcium - 450ppm
180 gal reef tank
2" sand bed
300 lbs live rock (rough estimate, maybe more?)
Refugium w protein skimmer
2 - mp40 wavemakers
3 - 165W LED fixtures (3W per bulb)
2 - 3' T5 fixtures
Neptune System:
-pH ranges from 8.1-8.35 everyday (naturally cycles this range every 24hrs)
-Temp ranges from 77-77.5 everyday
-Salinity - 33.5

Realized i didn't change out my RO filters and was literally adding phosphates into the tank during weekly water changes (25-35 gallons). Through troubleshooting with the RedSea Phosphates test kit, i realized this was the source. Never performed a Phosphate test until this date so cannot confirm phosphates weren't high prior to this mistake


Troubleshooting I have done:

Immediately:
- Changed RO filters on monthly basis: TDS meter 1-5ppm. 0ppm phosphates
- Added phosguard - full bottle rated for 400-450 gallons. In bag, not reactor
- Increased water changes from 25 gal/week to 35-50 gal/week
- Cleaned or replaced existing ChemiPure bags. (continuously maintain)

Approx 1 month ago:
- Changed Salt used in water changes from Instant Ocean Reef to Tropic Marin
- Added Dr.Tims Refresh - two doses, approx 1 month ago

Approx 2 weeks ago:
- Replaced broken 40W UV light (don't see that making a difference but wanted to mention it)
- Cleaned all debris out of LR by removing one at a time, placing into a bucket w pump to blow out all debris. Rinsed in additional bucket before returning to tank
- removed approx 1/4 sand bed.
- Completely cleaned refugium of all debris
- Adding Dr.Tims Waste Away once a week (started w half dose 1st week)

Just did it/about to do it:
- Decreased T5 lights from 12 hours to 11
- Decreased LEDs from 8 hours to 5 hours
- Waiting on delivery of Reef Octopus Biochurn 120int Biopellet Reactor. Will use 600-700mL of Dr.Tims NP-Active Pearls.
- Waiting on delivery of 40lbs Ocean Direct live sand to replace sand i removed


So at this point, I'm literally relying on the new sand and reactor to resolve this issue. Not sure if the decrease in lights would really help or not. I can't think of any other troubleshooting after this. Please let me know what i'm missing or what i need to do to get things back in order.

 

[Chefjpaul]

IMHO- i would not touch your sand move your rocks to much, could cause More issues.

GFO- I don't know about phosguard, as I use GFO currently and on the past tanks.

Just go slow with it and don't do / change to much else with dosing stuff, as it (gfo), will burn out the phosphate.

I feel even if the rocks are leaching phosphate, it will go away...slowly, over time w/gfo as well.

Chemi pure is more or less carbon elite has a tiny amount of gfo.

Keep it clean.
Don't know for sure if changing your RO filters is necessary, unless the water is that bad? Or maybe if so the brand is burning out fast?

Could look into careful carbon dosing.

 

[piranhapat]

+ Chefjpaul .... Are you running DI on your RO filters. I would add GFO in a reactor. Watch your feeding too.

 

[LongIslandAndy]

+ Chefjpaul .... Are you running DI on your RO filters. I would add GFO in a reactor. Watch your feeding too.

If phosphates are your concern, pick up TLF Phosban Reactor and a small pump and run Ferric Oxide (GFO). The phosphates will drop

 

[Dan_P]

You did mention how much you are feeding (or did I miss it?). Here is an article to help you figure how much phosphate you are adding to the system.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry

Where your phosguard is could matter a lot. Phosguard not in a reactor or vigorous flow could be render the material nearly useless. I proved this myself. I had a media bag of GFO in the sump and the phosphate level was not declining, so I moved it into a filter box where it was getting the full blast of the tank-sump circulation. Phosphate went from 0.03 (Salifert) to a perfectly colorless test solution in 24 hours. It has remained that way for two weeks. I don't recommend that much flow because it seems to pulverize the GFO. OK in my situation because the filter caught it.

Also keep in mind that phosphate absorbers have limited capacity. It takes 1 kilogram of GFO to absorb 2.5 grams of phosphate. I don't know what phosguard is. Forget about what amounts the manufactures recommend because they do not say whether the amount is good for a 400 gallon tank with 1 or 0.1 PPM phosphate. I think they do not mention it because the amount needed and cost would scare potential customers away.

 

[evoIX_Reefer]

Make sure you don't try to remove your phosphates by GFO or other media too quickly. Though you don't want phosphates, removing it too quickly has adverse effects as well. Just use water changes with 0ppm ro/di water and gfo/media to slowly contain your phosphates.

GL clearing it out!

 

[EricL]

Thanks evoIX. I heard of horror stories of adding GFO to a system and literally watched their coral die....once it was removed through troubleshooting, the remaining coral came right back. Because of hearing this, i'm very cautious to use GFO in my system.

I think i'm going to let the DrTims Pearls do its thing in my new reactor (still waiting on shipping) for a week or two before going any further. I think my last course of action will be to buy another reactor (prob dual canister) to hold my carbon and GFO.

 

[EricL]

Thanks Dan P for the article. Only read a few paragraphs but very informative. I'm running out but will finish it later.

 

[akma]

I use phophate rx aka lanthium chloride. It's what the huge aquariums use to control their phosphates.
Do you have a good skimmer?

 

[Mattl22]

Akma how r u dosing it?

 

[Mattl22]

EricL how old is ur system I have a 220 having nutrient issues also I did everything that's considered correct husbandry and it's helped but months later still have issues and like you I'm frustrated I've decided to remove 2/3 my sand bed I'll be doing this over next few weeks will siphon it out during wc I'm hoping this helps

 

[akma]

@mattl2

I usually dose it into my skimmer. Next day you see the foam which is the phophates that have turned into solids. I know people do it in their filter socks as well, but that got my water cloudy.

 

[EricL]

I feel like my skimmer is decent. Since my Nitrates are at 0ppm, i'm assuming its doing the job.

 

[EricL]

@Mattl22

I received the system about 6 months ago from someone who no longer wanted it. He had it for approx 9 years. Saved the water, rock, and sand. Can't confirm if the phosphates were an issue prior to me having it....only recently bought a phosphate test kit.

 

[Dan_P]

EricL how old is ur system I have a 220 having nutrient issues also I did everything that's considered correct husbandry and it's helped but months later still have issues and like you I'm frustrated I've decided to remove 2/3 my sand bed I'll be doing this over next few weeks will siphon it out during wc I'm hoping this helps

I am going to speculate on your system and situation.

Your set up is less than one year old. Your denitrifying bacteria are still being established. As a result, your bioload exceeds the biological filter's capacity. Also, your nitrates are high but relatively constant, that is dentrification and nitrate production are at steady state. Removing the sand bed Will not help your situation.

How's that?

 

[Dan_P]

I feel like my skimmer is decent. Since my Nitrates are at 0ppm, i'm assuming its doing the job.

Your good husbandry practices should get some credit. Here is why I think that.

Nitrates in your system could be low not because of the skimmer performance but a balance exists between nitrate production and denitification. The bioload waste production and dentrification bacteria capabilities are balanced. This balance is achieved only in part by the skimmer removing some organics that might end up in producing nitrates. I believe skimmer importance is over rated.

 

[Chefjpaul]

Here is how I view my new system:

As a chef,
the foods I prepare do not come seasoned, (sand beds). Someone needs to add these, (nutrients).

The key is proper balance of seasonings, salt, pepper etc... And not to over do it or I will have nasty tasting food, (no flavor balance / water quality) & (upset guests / coral & fish), now if i add to much salt one time, should I add more pepper, or just reduce the salt next time?

Its about balance to me, and nutrient export that will match up with import.

I did keep messing with and remove the sand bed in my last tank... It Kept crashing.
I didn't SLOW down, research and figure out that, I was adding "to much seasoning....aka food" without proper export of the excess nutrients, leftovers.

No balance.

All our medias work to bind phosphates, but they will never be in check, unless we have the balance.

I know my dry rock are still leaching a minimal amount of them, reason why I use gfo currently. It will burn out eventually.

 

[Mattl22]

Hi Dan my system is relatively new it was set up approx 1 yr 4 months ago so what ur saying could be true and it's obvious that things are not falling into place as I hoped at this point figured after a yr I'd be back to growing sps and although I have a few sps doing fair something is off balance I just bought a triton test to see if there's more going on but now u have me 2 nd guessing removing a lot of the sand bed .......