Paul B

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Thinking outside the box

Unfortunately there is this box. Itis very comfortable and warm inside the box which is why almost everyone wantsto stay and think inside the box. Peopleinside the box all have much of the same ideas and ways of thinking and oddlyenough many of the same problems that don't get resolved using the same methodsthat people inside the box have been using since the salt water hobby startedin the United States in 1971. I think itwas on a Tuesday about 2 or 2:30 in the afternoon. Even though many of the methods don't work,people still use those methods because the sides of the box are very hard sothe information gets echoed all over the box and we hear the same wronginformation over and over again. Wecan't help but to use those methods because that is whats inside that box. The box also gets a daily influx of Noobs andmany times Noobs will try something and it will work. Of course they don't know that that thing hasbeen done forty seven thousand times. Then that information bounces around the box and everyone in the boxhears it and thinks that is the way to do that particular thing. So it is done over and over again and eventhough it worked once, and never works again, it is still done becauseeventually that Noob gets out of the hobby and goes on one of those"Getting out of the Hobby, everything for sale " threads, but hisIdeas keep getting re-circulated. Hegoes on to colect stamps and becomes an accountant at Burger King where hebecomes a manager of the French Fry cooker.
Many years ago there was no box. Allwe had was wide open spaces, Elvis, Marylin Monroe, bellbottoms and a lot of sky. There were also no methods so we had to findour own ways to do things. We had toexperiment and in doing so we killed more fish than StarKist Tuna. There was only one salt water hobbiest perstate and there was no internet and we didn't know each other so everyone was aresearcher. When we bought a fish,no oneknew anything about that fish except the fish itself and Jacues Cousteau and hewasn't talking. So if our tank gotovercome with hair algae, we learned on our own how to deal with it. We grew enough algae to cover a 19 hole golfcourse, but eventually we overcame and eliminated the algae. Of course if we were inside the box we wouldlearn that changing the water will help with that. But we, outside the box realize that neverworks so we didn't do that.
When our fish got parasites we quickly learned how to deal with thatalso. Again, if we were inside the boxwe would change the water , with the same result.
If a fish died, we learned through trial and error how to correct thatsituation. No, we didn't change thewater or check our parameters. We had notest kits anyway so we had to rely on our common sense which worked out prettywell.
We also learned, on our own how to feed fish so they would never getsick. We found out that our fish weresupposed to spawn all the time and if they didn't, they were not healthy andprone to diseases. We could have changedthe water but knew that in the future there would be this box where everyonechanged water all the time but still had numerous problems.
We never had a new fish that wouldn't eat because our tanks were naturaland healthy, not sterile like a newly shampooed rug like many of the tanksinside the box.
Sometimes, after a while someone climbs outside of the box and in doing sotrys to go against the fine folks inside the box. The people inside the box make fun of thatperson and say his (or her) Ideas can't work because it is just not done thatway. If say that person uses a reverseundergravel filter, the laughter from inside the box will rise to a roar. If that person goes against biblical boxknowledge and finds a way to keep fish healthy without quarantining, that roarwill become a typhoon and the box will shake.
The box people will never accept those outside the box ideas because it isjust not taught inside the box. Even ifthose outside of the box ideas are proven, they will never be taken seriousely,and more importantly if any of those ideas and methods are very cheap and easyto implement, forget about it, that person may as well take up collecting oldshoes because he will be driven out of the fish hobby.
Now everyone knows there are some really nice tanks inside the box. Some tanks, everyone are jealous of so goingoutside the box is not for everyone. But history proves that all of the new,important, earth shattering or Awe inspiring events that happened were theresult of thinking outside the box because if everyone always thought insidethe box there would never be any improvement because the box doesn?t allow forit. Most Neanderthals thought inside thebox which is the reason they walked around for thousands of years carryingsticks and little else. It took anoutside the box thinker to invent a microwave so Neanderthals could throw awaythat stick and heat up a TV dinner. Eventually Neanderthals got taken over by Liberals who invented thatbox.
:rolleyes:
 

theMeat

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Interesting post as usual Paul. And as usual one that begs for debate. Think there is just as much thinking outside the box as ever. Maybe even more so. There are many areas that have been honed in, tried and true which leave little wiggle room for development, but many other that not thought possible just a short time ago. The huge strides forward in just this hobby in recent past is proof of that. Love it when people think outside the box. It's both inspiring and interesting. While i'd like to consider myself to be one of those inspirational people, think it's more likely most times i don't take peoples advice and have to learn the hard way. Which most times is a waste of time and resource. But sometimes it leads me down a road of discovery.

A couple of my favorite sayings...
-"Those that ain't busy learning are busy dying" Bob Dylan
-"An idiot keeps making the same mistakes. A smart person learns from their mistakes. But a genius learns from the mistakes of others". unknown
 

MikeC

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Hi Paul I though you might like this ;)
2587C398-DD3D-48A7-9EB3-D233A92D2D91_zpsdenlod0u.jpg
 

Paul B

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theMeat. I have actually been studying that problem with the plastics. Interesting video but I think his numbers are way off. Of course I am no expert on recycling the oceans but I have been around almost 70 years so I know a little. When I was young, there was no plastic. Think about that. No plastic bags (fish came in cardboard boxes like Chinese food comes in), toys were metal as were pipes. We carried things home from a store in paper and stuff from a hardware store in our pocket as they were not shrink wrapped. We got along just fine. I was recently in Hawaii where they banned plastic bags. Nothing terrible happened. I refuse plastic bags when I go to a store and when my wife and I go to the Supermarket, we bring cloth bags.
It is us, the people that make the plastic waste in the sea and in our cities.
As for cleaning it up, that won't happen until all the countries on Earth, after fighting all the wars and invading each other we all become one nation. One people with an idea. Then when there are no more countries or people to fight we can spend the money that we are spending on wars to clean up the planet. Of course that won't happen for 67,000 years. :cool:
 

theMeat

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Yeah it's going to happen. It's a matter of economics. Cleaning these ocean swirls, patches, whatever you want to call them didn't until now because of the cost. Now that it's profit and not cost it will happen, and this kid not only came up with the concept but is making it happen. He didn't have the money himself but finally gathered enough that it's in a life sized, on the ocean model testing phase. Add to that the high demand for eco friendly clothes that'r driving up the price of recycled plastics through the roof, and it for sure going to happen.
Oh, and btw. In 67,000 thousand years, we'll be in the middle of an ice age.

Have been following this guy for years. Check out the website
http://www.theoceancleanup.com/?gclid=CJDR-uPh2swCFVQ2gQodvF0GEg
 
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Koyfam16

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Interesting post as usual Paul. And as usual one that begs for debate. Think there is just as much thinking outside the box as ever. Maybe even more so. There are many areas that have been honed in, tried and true which leave little wiggle room for development, but many other that not thought possible just a short time ago. The huge strides forward in just this hobby in recent past is proof of that. Love it when people think outside the box. It's both inspiring and interesting. While i'd like to consider myself to be one of those inspirational people, think it's more likely most times i don't take peoples advice and have to learn the hard way. Which most times is a waste of time and resource. But sometimes it leads me down a road of discovery.

A couple of my favorite sayings...
-"Those that ain't busy learning are busy dying" Bob Dylan
-"An idiot keeps making the same mistakes. A smart person learns from their mistakes. But a genius learns from the mistakes of others". unknown



@themeat - one quote I've heard before that makes sense to me is that "smart people believe half the things they hear.....brilliant people knows which half to believe.
That video looks interesting. Thanks for sharing.

@Paul - interesting topic. I can only imagine what it was like having a salt water tank 40 years ago. Lol. Kudos for staying in the hobby this long. I also hope I never have a "getting out of the hobby sale".
 

Geraud

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--- On the subject of plastic in oceans ---

The problem with the solution is that... it removes only what is "visible" of the plastics that are in the ocean.

People always imagine this "island of plastic", as something solid, made of plastic bags and plastic bottles. Well... it does not exist.

We have all seen the images of tortoises whose growth have been stunted by a plastic holder for cans. The reality is... this is very uncommon.

Plastic gets broken up into micro particles. And these are the real issue, because they are eaten by the plankton, and from there go all the way up the predators, including us. Since a lot of these plastics are/are treated with endocrine disruptors... the possible results are scary (it means, lower sperm count, etc etc)

Recently some plastic particles were found in the Mariana trenches. This is not going to be cleaned up with a net.

Good measures that are being taken:
- banning plastic bags
- banning soaps that contain plastic beads (if you need pumice, use pumice!)

Bad things:
- why do we have "unbreakable bottles" for shaving lotions instead of good old glass?
- In the long run, I am really worried about 3D printers... sure they are fun, but they use polluants, and there is a lot of trash when you print something with them.
 

theMeat

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Believe micro particles are discussed in the vid, and on the website. The islands of plastic, i.e. garbage patches, are completely real. Seven miles deep probably will never get cleaned, and biodegradable plastics should be a world wide standard. Maybe the disposable generation will cause the next to be the sustainable generation
 

Geraud

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The thing is, there is no mechanical way to really clean the ocean. It is as if you were trying to clean an olympic-size swimming pool with the tiniest aquarium net. You might get some stuff close to the surface, but that is all you are doing really.

Those solutions are clever... but they are not the solution to the actual problem: plastic is everywhere!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch

This does not fit the definition of island... "Because of its large area, it is of very low density (4 particles per cubic meter), and therefore not visible from satellite photography, nor even necessarily to casual boaters or divers in the area. It consists primarily of a small increase in suspended, often microscopic, particles in the upper water column."

The best solution is to stop aggravating the problem: aka by using less plastic.
 

Paul B

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Ain't gonna happen because it costs money. The countries will just blame each other and never get together even if they had some place to put that much plastic.
Look at air pollution. Everyone breathes it and we all make it, but no one is stopping it.
(except me of course because I installed solar electric and a condensing boiler that is about 98% efficient):cool:
When we build an American electric car, I will buy it. :rolleyes:
 

theMeat

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AR-141019965.jpg


With the amount being collected growing, and the price and money involved in what is becoming a commodity still growing. That is a tell tail sign for a good investment and why it will happen. Not a matter of where to dispose of, or who's going to pay. It's a mater of how much profit, where it will and can be used, and who will invest.

us-export-of-plastic-scrap-rest-of-world-china_chartbuilder.png

Perhaps you didn't check out the website that shows a working clean up functioning in the ocean? Or understand that even with the low prices of oil right now that it is profitable. Or the huge amounts of money being raised to start more of these. I'm not saying this is the answer to it all, but making the act of ridding the oceans of plastic profitable is certainly a step in the right direction.
Solar power, as it is currently harnessed, will likely be outdated in 20 years. So that array on your roof which is making clean energy comes at a cost envirornmentally. Sorta like 10 years ago, replacing all your screw in light bulbs with fluorescent seemed like a great idea, that many companies made a sh!tload of money on. Are now filling our landfills with untold amounts of mercury with the invent of cheap leds. Aside from conserving, in our area solar is the only viable option available right now. My money is on nuclear fusion as the only way we can sustain, that we know of right now.
Tesla is an extremely well made electric car, and is made in America. The owner of Tesla is also the owner of Solar City.
 
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Paul B

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I actually did see the video. I just don't believe it. Recycling plastics is not really profitable or my town and other towns would be trying to get it. But even though we here on Long Island have to recycle, most of it just goes back into the landfill. They don't tell us that, but it is what it is.
We need to drastically cut down on plastics. There is no need for the vast majority of it. Plastic bags are stupid and are banned in Hawaii. I generally don't take them in a store. All the stuff that comes in blister packs is also stupid as that stuff lasts forever. We will eventually stop making plastic for a number of reasons. First, we will run out of oil to make it out of and when the oceans have no more room for water, just plastic, we can walk to Europe and all push back up the Leaning Tower of Piza. :bigeyes2:

I like the Tesla car. It is a little out of my price range now so I will have to wait for one that doesn't cost as much as a Mazzeratti. :biggrin:
 

theMeat

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I agree that so much plastic is not needed.
Your recycling is being sold. That's something no one wants to tell you. At first it was being tossed, but now that there's an infrastructure that supports a profit it most certainly is being sold. The cleaner the plastic, and the less sorting of it that needs to be done, the higher the value. That's why some towns only take bottles and cans, and some take everything. There are synthetic and biodegradable plastics, so the we're going to run out of oil as our savior is not a good one.
Anyways...plastic is only a spec in what challenges our planet. Even in the best possible scenario, with everyone driving electric cars and using solar energy. There's just too many people, consuming too much, while making more people, to sustain. Yet most every economist promotes a growing population so our economy is ever growing. God forbid we should have to live with less.
 

fishywoo

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Newly discovered bacteria can eat plastic bottles.
A team of Japanese scientists has found a species of bacteria that eats the type of plastic found in most disposable water bottles.

The discovery, published Thursday in the journal Science, could lead to new methods to manage the more than 50 million tons of this particular type of plastic produced globally each year.
The plastic found in water bottles is known as polyethylene terephthalate, or PET. It is also found in polyester clothing, frozen-dinner trays and blister packaging.
"If you walk down the aisle in Wal-Mart you're seeing a lot of PET," said Tracy Mincer, who studies plastics in the ocean at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in Massachusetts.
Part of the appeal of PET is that it is lightweight, colorless and strong. However, it has also been notoriously resistant to being broken down by microbes-what experts call "biodegradation."


Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2016-03-newly-bacteria-plastic-bottles.html#jCp
 

Paul B

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Unfortunately whenever they try to alleviate one problem by introducing another, they end up with a worse problem. I hope those plastic eating bacteria stop at plastic and don't go on to acquire a taste for TVs, lawn mowers, those little plastic things on the ends of shoelaces, hair plugs, nose rings, Spam and Supermodel shoes. :scratch:
 

theMeat

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They weren't introduced, they were discovered. Life and nature found a way.
Interesting that you started a thread on thinking outside of the box, and then shoot down everything presented. At the same time I agree about these plastic eating bacteria. If they eat supermodel's shoes, that's where I draw the line.
I'll get off your lawn now
 

Paul B

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I didn't shoot down anything and I think we can easily remove all the plastics from the sea. I don't doubt that for a minute. I said, governments won't spend the money to do it. Supermodels will just have to have wooden heels put on their shoes. They can get the wood from the sides of the box that so many people live in. But that will leave holes in the box. That is a good thing because then some good Ideas can filter in. There would need to be a screen on those holes so the plastic eating bacteria don't get in. By the way, plastics were invented in the forties, what were those plastic eating bacteria eating before that? I know they were not eating Elvis records even though they were made out of vinyl. I still have some of those hidden away from those bacteria because if they got their claws on one of my Elvis records, his blue suede shoe record wouldn't sound right and I would have to listen to jail house rock over and over again. :rolleyes:
 

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