ReeferMadness99

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So I've been doing some research about different Balling and Balling Light methods. I've come across some pretty interesting stuff. Particularly, the information that Hans Werner Balling talks about ionic imbalance in our systems.

Basically, most of us dose 2 part + Mg into our systems. Then we rely on weekly 10% water changes to help replenish trace elements. What I've read has enlightened me a bit. So we dose Calcium Chloride into our systems and then Sodium Carbonate. We also dose on the side, Magnesium Chloride. Essentially, our corals synthesize the Calcium and leave the Chloride as well as the Carbonate and leaving the Sodium. This creates a buildup of unbalanced Sodium Chloride in our systems which according to Hans Werner, starts to give us a false specific gravity of balanced seawater.

I understand this, as over time we are building up more and more NaCl in our systems, and as we do water changes measured to the same specific gravity, we are not addressing the imbalance at all. As a result, this imbalance magnifies over time.

My questions to anyone out there using the Tropic Marin 3 part Balling Method are:

1. Do you see any specific benefits from the 3rd part NaCl Free Salt Mix?

2. If this is chemically sound and true, then is this truly a way to eliminate water changes?

3. The logic of this seems to point to the fact that you will ultimately need to remove tank water and replace with RO/DI as it seems over time, the specific gravity will inevitably increase if you are dosing part 3(NaCl Free Salt Mix) as a ionic balance to the NaCl buildup. Is this correct?

I think I answered this myself. When dosing NaCl Free Salt mix, you are dosing it MIXED with RO/DI and therefore not changing the gravity over time. Perhaps this mixture needs to be mixed at a lower specific gravity? Maybe we need to know what the SG of saltwater would be without the NaCl in it and mix this to that gravity?

I don't know if Boomer is still around, but this sounds like chemistry question for him! Hope to hear from many of you!
 
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ReeferMadness99

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Also I wanted to add that this was because I've been looking into Tropic Marin's 3 part Balling Complete that is used in Europe but not here in the US. Basically, Part A is the CaCl and the Part B is the Sodium Carbonate. Part C is the NaCl Free Mix.

Now here's 2 more questions:

1. Doesn't this method NOT account for the Magnesium that is used in smaller amounts? Or is Magnesium only being depleted in our systems due to ionic imbalance? Does the Part C NaCl Free Mix provide ALL of the missing Mg back into our system?

2. If anyone is doing this, would it be the same if I dosed standard Calcium Chloride (BRS) and standard Na2CO3 (baked baking soda), and finally add Brightwell Aquatics Neo Marine Kalibrate (the salt they sell where you just add your own NaCl) as the Part 3? This would be much cheaper than having to purchase large amounts of Tropic Marin's 3 Part.

3. If I do use Brightwell's Kalibrate, what would be proper solution to make and how much should I dose? Is there a formula to dose in comparison to Part A and B?
 
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Lou Ekus

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@ReeferMadness99 Much of what you are saying about the Balling Method is right on. There are a few other things that I can explain, that will clear up your other questions. We should speak specifically about the raise in salinity over time, water changes, and the Mg levels, all in relation to the Balling Method. You can reach me in the office at 413-367-0101 or PM me with your phone number and I can give you a call.

Also, you might want to watch this short video explaining the Balling Method for some preliminary information:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZy7RS8kEag

I hope to be able to speak to you soon.
 

jackson6745

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So basically just use their sodium chloride free salt if you are already 2 part dosing??? That's all I take away from it. I Never saw TM sodium chloride free salt for sale locally, but I'll try it next time I order.
 

jackson6745

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Actually, looking at the part C box I don't think it's meant to be used as a salt for water changes. If it is that's F-ing expensive. I'll spend more time reading about this. Apparently a brief skim was not enough.
 

jackson6745

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What I still don't understand is that if I calibrate my refractometer, make a new saltwater mix to 1.025 (or wherever you want to keep it), how does this not remove the build up of Nacl in your system and "correct" the imbalance? The false reading would be in the tank if there is a build up of NACL, not if a fresh mix? An occasional large water change would remove the Nacl build up?
 

vio

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Sound to me like new contract, just dif. business if i use Calcium Reactor add. more than you can test (trace elements ) why i need more tests and more HEADACHES. We know is NO saving $ in this hobby.
 

ReeferMadness99

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What I still don't understand is that if I calibrate my refractometer, make a new saltwater mix to 1.025 (or wherever you want to keep it), how does this not remove the build up of Nacl in your system and "correct" the imbalance? The false reading would be in the tank if there is a build up of NACL, not if a fresh mix? An occasional large water change would remove the Nacl build up?

Because your not changing the ratio of elements in the water. If your dosing 2 part for say a week, you have introduced Ions of Sodium Chloride into the water. Now your tank water is your normal saltwater PLUS the extra Sodium Chloride. If you remove 20% of this unbalanced water and replace with 20% balanced water, well 80% of your tank still remains unbalanced. Of course we are talking about such tiny amounts but the issue is compounding over long periods of time.

Also, I've discovered a few more things after researching. Essentially, our corals do not only consume Calcium and Carbonate. Our corals also use many other elements such as Boron, Strontium, Potassium, Iodide, etc....

I started to think, well really any element that is consumed in our tanks and not replaced will change the ionic balance of our tank water. Water changes do not repair that ionic imbalance, it simply mixes 10-20% (depending how much you like to change) of good balanced water into the mix of unbalanced water. The same ideology goes for elements that we introduce into the system (NaCl is what we manually put in with our 2 part).

I decided to address this by going with Aquaforest's 3 part dosing plan. The first solution part mixes Calcium Chloride & Magnesium Chloride. You also add in their Strong Components A & B (which happens to be Strontium, Boron, and many other trace elements). The 2nd part solution is your alkalinity buffer which I use Soda Ash. You also mix into this solution their Strong Components C. This is another mix of trace elements that corals use. Finally the 3rd part solution is their Reef Mineral Salt (or their version of NaCl free salt). This is mixed together and Strong Components K is added to this solution.

So basically, this method as I see it, is the closest to replacing all the trace elements as well as the major components that the corals are using and at the same time, keeping the ionic balance by eliminating the free floating NaCl ions in the water.

I'm thinking this method should technically make it almost a system without water changes. Maybe once a month or once every 2 months? There really is no reason to do a water change if you have PO4 and NO3 at 0 with some kind of probiotic method (Zeo, Biopellets, etc...) I'm going to also incorporate a turf scrubber once I start introducing corals to further make sure there are no traces of phosphate or nitrate in the water.
 
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ReeferMadness99

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@ReeferMadness99 Much of what you are saying about the Balling Method is right on. There are a few other things that I can explain, that will clear up your other questions. We should speak specifically about the raise in salinity over time, water changes, and the Mg levels, all in relation to the Balling Method. You can reach me in the office at 413-367-0101 or PM me with your phone number and I can give you a call.

Also, you might want to watch this short video explaining the Balling Method for some preliminary information:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZy7RS8kEag

I hope to be able to speak to you soon.

Hey Lou, sorry things have been nuts at work lately lol. I'd love to chat maybe this weekend. Yeah I saw that video a while back, its one of the videos that got me thinking about ionic balance. I'm current running with regular Calcium Chloride Dihydrate and Magnesium Hexahydrate for Part A, then Soda Ash for Part B, and Aquaforest Reef Mineral Salt for Part 3, and spiked into each part is Aquaforest Strong Components. I'm gonna see how this runs.
 

ReeferMadness99

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Is anyone else on this forum using this bailing method? Seems logical for people running ZEO or Natureef.

3 part balling never really got a whole lot of traction in the U.S. Its widely used as standard practice in Europe. Up until just recently, nobody in the States even carried Tropic Marin's Balling system (with the NaCl free salt).

By the way, I have a new build tank thread going where I'm using a 3 part method. I'll try to chronicle it and how it affects the tank. I'm going to see if there are any adverse effects if I do not do any water changes for long periods of time.
 
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