Newbie: need help big time!!!

[dgasmd]

After having my freswater 125 gal. tank in storage for the past 4-5 years, I ahve decided to make it a fish only (for now) saltwater tank. I have never had saltwater systems before.
The tank is filled and running. Checked all the hoses and tubes from the tank to the sump/trickle filter and back and is all good.
QUESTIONS:
-How much sand/crushed coral do I need for a system this big?
-What do I need to d to cycle the tank since I already have a trickle filter (home made)? A kid at the local store says: add 25 lb. of live sand and add a fish the next day. Test in 2 weeks and keep adding fish from then on if all is OK. Does it sound right??
-How much live rock do I need? I am only keeping fish for now.
-I want to keep a few lion fish and an eal. What other fish are compatible with them? What kind of conditions do they require?

I know is a lot to ask, but we have all been there in the dark at one point in time. Remember those days??

Alberto

 

[Yellowboy]

i probably don't know anywhere near as much as most people but the amount of sand seems a little small for a 125 and the cycling time seems a little short too. two weeks then a fish is gonna be none fun for that fish in my opinion. I'd go with a lot more sand, enough to give you several inches deep. As far as the rock goes, people usually say like 2 pounds to the gallon or something? but this is expensive, my first few saltwater tanks had no live rock, as far as compatability with the lionfish, anything smaller than their mouth will end up in it

 

[dgasmd]

Thanks for all the advise. I know patience is the key here. From having freshwater fish for years, I think I know some basic rules, do, and don't, but it always nice to hear it from others as well. Since this tank is going to be a fish only, I think I can do without the skimmer, which I would prefer not to have. If it is a must, please correct me and tell me why.
As far as the rock and sand, I think I am going to start with a 2-3 inch bed and then throw about 50lb of live sand on top. I will buy just a bit of rock to start (about 50lb) and then add up slowly. I'll test for a few days and then when things seem right, I'll add the first fish.
The problem right now is money. If I ahd the money to buy 200-250lb of live rock, a great skimmer, and 200lb of live sand, I would have turned this tank into a reef instead. Plus, I can't afford the lighting either. Maybe in the future. Thanks again.

 

[BILL & THERESA MEISTE]

Alberto, the use of water and fish is about where the similarities end. Fresh water is very forgiving of mistakes, salt is not. The smallest error will cause your entire system to crash and the death of everything in it.
With that said please take your time and gather more knowlledge. You mentioned a home made trickle filter, these are not used in salt although they are great in fresh. In a marine tank they become nitrate factories which is deadly to fish. A protien skimmer removes free floating food and other harmful waist, where a power filter, trickle filter, or canister filter hold these things in place as they rot and become harmfull bacteria such as nitrate, ammonia and raise your phosphate level. The type of fish you are talking about(lions, eels) are very messy eaters, and without a quality skimmer you will have problems. I run a 300gal. fish only tank, and wouldn't of operating without a skimmer.
PLease do the homework. Your fish will thank you and so will your wallet in the long run.
Bill

 

[freedom75]

Alberto

More sand is Good. Also please add the Skimmer. Adneither a Sump of A canster filter I would go Sump on a tank that large. But the trickle filter is only going to add problems . by the way Lion fish a really cool. I am not sure but I think you could keep a trigger in there to .

John Wray
[email protected]

 

[liquid]

I'd recommend getting the following beginner books to help familiarize yourself with what you will need to do to properly setup your tank:

The Coral Reef Aquarium : An Owner's Guide to a Happy Healthy Fish (Owners Guide to a Happy, Healthy Pet)
by Ron L. Shimek
Hardcover - 128 pages (August 1999)
Hungry Minds, Inc; ISBN: 1582451176 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.50 x 8.59 x 5.47
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1582451176/qid=1017506123/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_3_3/002-7273470-5097640

The New Marine Aquarium : Step-By-Step Setup & Stocking Guide
by Michael S. Paletta, Edward Kadunc (Illustrator), Scott W. Michael (Photographer), Michael D. Paletta
Paperback - 144 pages (May 1999)
Microcosm Limited; ISBN: 1890087521 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.35 x 10.93 x 8.41
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1890087521/qid=1017506247/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-7273470-5097640

The Conscientious Marine Aquarist : A Commonsense Handbook for Successful Saltwater Hobbyists
by Robert M. Fenner, Christopher Turk
Paperback - 432 pages (March 1998)
Microcosm Limited; ISBN: 1890087025 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.86 x 9.24 x 8.34
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1890087025/qid=1017506328/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-7273470-5097640

Combined the books cost around $50 before tax off of Amazon.com's website. That's less than the cost of 2 saltwater fish. Read as much as you can before setting up the tank as it will only help. Also, before making any purchases, I'd recommend asking this board their opinions on what you're thinking about as I've seen too many times people purchase this *awesome* seaclone skimmer that the LFS highly recommends only to find out that it's not the best skimmer out there.

hth

Shane

 

[reefworm]

dimaggio,
I usually hesitate being so direct, but the kid at the local store is giving you bad advice. My advice would be SLOW DOWN!. It may not be what you want to hear in the flush of excitement, but believe me you'll be happy later that you took the time to study and research before jumping in. Not as many creatures will die and you'll save yourself tons of $$$ and frustration. Invest in some good books, like Tullock's Natural Reef Aquariums, and/or Shimek's the Coral Reef Aquarium for starters. Lots of other good titles out there, not to mention this board and its library. Look in on discussions here as you have been, and spend some months learning and carefully planning for equipment and livestock before you commit. You'll get lots of help here. Take advantage of it. I think that many here at reefs.org would agree that the first important asset you can have is patience. Please don't take this as a flame - it's not. I'm just trying to save you some pain and wasted $$. This hobby is expensive enough as it is

best of luck, and regards,
-rw

 

[Miklos]

Alberto,
Did you read any books so far.If not I definately suggest reading one such as Fenner's"Concientious Reef Aquarist".That book will give you a great start and answer most of your questions.I would suggest one pound of rock per gallon of tank water.You can get the rock cheap from www.gulf-view.com.I would also suggest a 3-4 in sand bed made of special grade aroginite from caribsea which can be purchased at www.premiumaquatics.com.I would then suggest putting some live sand on top of the the sand bed.First I would put the rock in then the sand ,test the water daily and soon as the ammonia and nitrites are zero and nitrates are reasonable,then your cycle is done.With plenty of live rock, your cycle can be done as little as two weeks.I would also suggest using a good protien skimmer.Do a search on the discussion board and you will have many choices of skimmers.As for the lionfish,most books claim they are hardy and great eaters,just beware they are venomous and some can grow large.I don't know about and eel with the lionfish.Just make sure you get an eel that does not grow to large for the tank.HTH
Nick

 

[dgasmd]

Bill and others:

Thanks for the insightfull replies in the reefs.org site. Believe me, I do get the point about doing things right from the begining and I do understand that there are hardly any similarities between fresh and salt water.
I have been reading in this board and others for a while and have gathered some opinions. I say opinions because if there is one thing clear to me from reading is that there is more than one right way of doing things. From talking to this guy today that has been having reef tanks for over 10 years, I gather things could be done in more than one way. He uses tap water, does a 10-20% water change every 4-5 months (has gone for a year at times), has large fish in his reef tanks (40-80 gal tanks), runs no skimmer, has no sump, and would never invest in metal halides or PC lighting. I know these are NO NO NO to most in the hobby and to me, but his tanks look amazing, have been running for a long time, and he constantly sells frags off his colonies. Is this a freak of luck that he has never had any problems? I don't know but I am not going to find out myself.

*What kind of skimmer do you recommend? I would prefer something I can set up independently of the sump.

*If having a trickle filter is a bad idea, what is the point of a sump in the first place? Just to add another 10-15 gal to the system?

*If having a trickle filter is a bad idea because of build up of nitrates, isn't that partly what the water changes are for?

Thanks,
Alberto

PS: thanks for the links to the books. I just ordered them.

 

[dgasmd]

Forgot to ask:
*do you vaccum the sand bed when doing water changes?

 

[esmithiii]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

*do you vaccum the sand bed when doing water changes?

No. I do not.

E

 

[MarkO1]

Dimaggio, you are right. You will find many opinions here. My advice is try to duplicate nature as best as you can. You will be most successful this way. A protein skimmer is not absolutely necessary. Personally, I believe they are required more in FO tanks than reef tanks as reef tanks typically have a lower bioload. Your tank will have a VERY HIGH bio load as the fish you want to put in eat LOTS! I'd recommend a protein skimmer for you. In my 90 gal. reef, I have over 150# of live roak and an average of 4-5" of live sand. I only have 4 fish and only one is big (4"). My nitrates are constant at around 15ppm. A higher bioload would increase my nitrates. Something you may want to keep in mind.
_________________
Scottish Forum

 

[dgasmd]

*What kind of skimmer do you recommend? I would prefer something I can set up independently of the sump since after all the plumbing I just did there is no room to add anything there.

*If having a trickle filter is a bad idea, what is the point of a sump in the first place? Just to add another 10-15 gal to the system?

*If having a trickle filter is a bad idea because of build up of nitrates, isn't that partly what the water changes are for to a certain degree?

One thing is not clear to me is that some people advocate that a deep sand beed is goo because it creates anoxic spots at the bottom and so bacteria that thrieve in low O2 environments can consume the nitrates. How is it that O2 can't get there but the nitrates dissolved in the water does? Makes no sense to me!!

 

[esmithiii]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> *What kind of skimmer do you recommend? I would prefer something I can set up independently of the sump since after all the plumbing I just did there is no room to add anything there.
<hr></blockquote>

I love mine from Andy at MyReef creations.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>
*If having a trickle filter is a bad idea, what is the point of a sump in the first place? Just to add another 10-15 gal to the system?
<hr></blockquote>

Here are some reasons to have a sump:
<ul type="square">[*] Hide equipment such as heaters, skimmer, etc[*] Increased gas exchange[*] Good place for rigging a top-off system[*] Good place for a refugium[*] The extra water volume adds to the stability of the system[*] Add lights and some caulerpa and it is great for exporting nitrates[*] It is a good place to dose additives like Kalkwasser. It lets them mix well before entering the display tank[*] Some people use it as a holding tank for things "banished" from the main tank[*] Added LR in the refugium helps w/ biological filtration.
[/list]

A sump is quite different in purpose than a trickle filter

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>*If having a trickle filter is a bad idea because of build up of nitrates, isn't that partly what the water changes are for to a certain degree?
<hr></blockquote>

Yes. You would really have to do a ton of water changes to keep up, though. If you do the math and calculate the dilution curve, it is incredible. Suppose you have 20 PPM nitrates. How many 20% water changes would you have to do to get it under 1 PPM? 14 assuming that you do not have anything adding to the nitrates between water changes! A DSB is better as it processes the nitrates continually.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>One thing is not clear to me is that some people advocate that a deep sand beed is goo because it creates anoxic spots at the bottom and so bacteria that thrieve in low O2 environments can consume the nitrates. How is it that O2 can't get there but the nitrates dissolved in the water does? Makes no sense to me!!
<hr></blockquote>

Good question. Perhapse someone w/ a better grasp of biology can answer this one for you. A couple of points, though is that all the sand is wet. The surface of the sand bed is in contact with the water column and has an incredible surface area due to the small particle size. This surface area is colonized by bacteria that break down ammonia and nitrate.

Another key point is that in a DSB detritus and food particles do not fall between the pieces of the substrate as they do in a system w/ crushed coral, crushed shell or in a trickle filter. The life in the sand bed is very efficient at processing it.

All I can say is that I am a beliver! My nitrates were out of control until I added a DSB. I would never do without one.

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: esmithiii ]</p>

 

[Anonymous]

a current "what good is a sump" discussion

RR

 

[esmithiii]

Righty: Funny! I linked the other one to this one!

Ernie

 

[dgasmd]

What is even funnier is that I actually started both ha ha ha....

 

[MarkO1]

The nitrogen cycle simplified is this:
Ammonia (NH3, NH4+) --> baceria -->Nitrite (NO2-) -->another bacteria --> Nitrate (NO3-)
Nitrate can not really be broken down in aerobic (oxygen rich)conditions, but supposedly can be broken down into N2 and O2 (nitrogen and oxygen gas) in an anaerobic environment (oxygen depleted). This is my understanding of the cycle. Supposedly anaerobic conditions exist within the lower reaches of a deep sand bed. The exact depth depends upon the grain size of the sand. The bigger the grain size, the deeper the sand bed needs to be to create an anaerobic environment. In this environment, the oxygen is literally stripped from the nitrate and harmless nitrogen gas is the product. The rate at which the nitrate is removed from the tank is extremely small. Some folks here swear that certain corals also reduce nitrate. For instance Xenia. I do not know if this has been scientifically proven.
In a nutshell, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, nitrogen gas and oxygen gas all exist in the ocean. For the most part, the first 3 are almost undetectable. This is based for the most part on the density of fishes in the ocean. Your tank may have a per capita density many many many times greater than that of the ocean. This is why nitrates have a tendency to build up in a tank and why some people recommend only 1 inch of fish per 10 gal. of tank. I have tested waters from established tanks and have found nitrates non-existant in some yet as high as 250 in others. It all comes down to the bioload of the tank.
Hope this helps.
_________________
Mercedes 350