Live Phyto in Reef Tanks

[danmhippo]

Why is it that we cannot keep the live phyto (nanochloropsis, for example) population going in our reef tanks? Instead, we need to keep buying more and more of DT's to keep our tanks fed? If supposed that the live phyto's split so fast, and if the tanks are relatively understocked, and if there are no protein skimmer installed, and if we don't have fishes that graze on the phytos, there should be no reason we cannot keep the production going?????

I pour in 15oz of DT's in every month to my tank. The first day the tank is very green. The second day the green color is practically non-existent. I am not using skimmers. I am only change water once a month. I do not really have heavy phyto utilizers in my tank other than some sponge and gorgonians. What is it that I need to do to keep my phyto levels self-sustainable?

 

[jamesw]

Does the phytoplankton just settle to the bottom of the aquarium?

Cheers
James

 

[danmhippo]

Hmmm, then the sand bed should be green by now.

Well, DT's "claim" that their product is "live". I remembered Matt and Tom of InlandReefs confirmed that a while ago. Nano is non-motile, that I can understand if it settles, but tetraselmis is motile. DT's are supposed to be a mixture of nano and tetraselmis (correct me if I am dead wrong). Moreover, given we drive currents in our tank almost to an extreme, not much detritus will settle much less the phyto's.

 

[Anonymous]

Could it be that their life span, like many other microscopic organism, is short lived and our tanks do not provide the proper breeding environment. Just grasping at straws I guess.

 

[john f]

I have cultured Nano before and the reason it does not sustain itself in reefs is simple: Lack of nutrients.
If you had enough free nitrogen in your display tank to support phytoplankton growth, you would not have a reef tank. You would have a eutrophic mess.

John

 

[danmhippo]

Thanks John, yes, that answers my question.

How did you go about determining if you have added enough nutrients into the culturing solution? Do you use a TDS meter? What's the reading you are trying to achieve?

I can understand TDS meter being used in Freshwater environment, but not sure about the accuracy of TDS meter in saltwater environment.

 

[Carpentersreef]

Jimmy,
IMHO, our reef tanks are way too clean and the water volume to bioload ratio is way too low for us to effectively replicate what is actually happening in the natural environment.
The use of protein skimmers, for example, is simply a way that we can marginally maintain our reef aquariums.
What our systems really need is a larger water volume base to draw nutrients from and to allow for sufficient populations of enough life forms to live in so that they can realize their life cycles.

(somewhere along the scale of 3 neon tetras in a 300g tank)

Mitch

 

[MattM]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by danmhippo:
<strong>Well, DT's "claim" that their product is "live". I remembered Matt and Tom of InlandReefs confirmed that a while ago.</strong><hr></blockquote>

We just looked at it, we can't confirm life. What I actually said was that I didn't question DT's claims, but there is no way to tell if it is alive from the photos.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by danmhippo:
<strong>DT's are supposed to be a mixture of nano and tetraselmis (correct me if I am dead wrong).</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think DT's was a blend a long time ago. It's just one type now (Nanochloropsis, I think), and has been for at least the last two years. The Kent Phytoplex is a blend (Nanochloropsis, Tetraselemis, and Isochrisis - excuse the random guesses at spelling, too lazy to look them up right now

).

 

[Anemone]

Jimmy,

Some people do reach the level of self-sustaining populations of phyto - they're usually the ones posting "Help, water is green, what can I do?"

Not that many of them out there, but every few weeks you see someone who has everything just right, and now can't get their water clear again.

Given the choice, I think I'll take clear water

BTW, don't discount the amount of water cleaned by sponges, studies show that they pump incredible volumes of water and recent writings (I wish I could remember where I read it...oldtimers' disease....) indicate that sponges may be the major filtration on the reefs.

Kevin

 

[SPC]

To follow up on what Kevin said about sponges, I watched a great show on PBS the other night that dealt with sponges most likely being the first animal on the planet. One of the things mentioned was that sponges (I presume those on the reef)pump 1 ton of water through them in order to get 1 ounce of food. That struck me as a pretty good indicator on how clean the water is that they come from.
Steve

 

[john f]

Dan,
I cultured microalgae as per Florida Aqua Farms directions.
The Micro Algae Grow solution they sell has specific directions for use but this will give you an idea of nutrient levels.

Primary solution *
To 1 liter of distilled or tap water, add:
Chemical Grams
sodium nitrate (NaNO3) 75.0
sodium phosphate (NaH2PO4) 5.0
iron sequestrene (Fe-EDTA) 5.0
boric acid (H3BO3) 2.5


Those quantities are in grams.
So a liter of this solution has 75grams of nitrate and 5 grams of phosphate.
Try pouring a liter of this into your display tank and see what happens.

Just kidding................


John

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

That struck me as a pretty good indicator on how clean the water is that they come from.

Excellent observation Steve. This should also help to point out why many high energy reef area dwelling sponges fail to live in our aquaria. The water is not clean enough. Reef sponges, being quite polytrophic (detritus, nutrients, algae, etc), are often so symbiotically inclined

to maintain not only the expected autotrophic cyanobacteria for manufacture of the photosynthetic goods, but also heterotrophic bacteria (once thought to be parasites) that utilize nutrients for a mutualistic relationship.

However, in aquaria, the food they consume from pumping fails to make up the energy actually expended in the pumping/digestion itself. Thus, they could likely maintain themselves on photosynthesitic and heterotrophic symbiosis, along with what sparse bit of algal phyto and bacterioplankton they would get in our systems. The problem is apparently the lack of dilution in pathogenic agents inherently in our systems. So pretty much, no UV sterilizer, no great majority of reef sponges in aquaria. Their polytrophic tendencies will allow (pureed/food-processed) meaty seafoods, nori, etc. to be feed adequetly as a subsitute for the foodstuffs removed by the UV sterilizer.
Chris

 

[Anonymous]

this one gets bumped, too

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I grow phyto on the aquarium glass and scrape it off with a magnet.I've NEVER purchased a phyto supplement.I do have more sponge growth than the typical reef aquarium,and the big clam is doing just fine.Not to whip a dead horse and stir up a debate,but CombiSan WILL grow green stuff on the aquarium glass,and I have used it to maintain my nanochloropsis 'greenwater'cultures for rotifer feedings.

 

[john f]

If you took a pee in a glass it could maintain a microalgae culture.


Sorry Gary, but it is NOT phytoplankton growing on your glass.


John

 

[Jacqui]

Can you add DT's just once a month? My LFS told me to add 1 tsp twice a week. Am I using it correctly?

 

[danmhippo]

If your signature list of organism is all you have, I don't even think you need to add live phyto at this stage. It is some species of polyps, sponges, gorgonians that are able to capture phytoplankton as food. Adding live phyto, you might just be giving $$ away to your LFS.

How much to add depends on how big your tank is, and what is kept in it. If yours is 55G, adding 1 tsp twice a week, IMHO, doesn't do crap.

[ April 07, 2002: Message edited by: danmhippo ]</p>

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

john f: If not phytoplankton,what is it I am growing on the glass? And is it a phytoplankton substitute? I never tried the glass full of pee idea,but it sure makes sense to me with all that ammonia- and it would be a recycling thing as well!Just gotta make sure to buy my own glass 'cause my wife will not appreciate another item disappearing from the kitchen!

 

[john f]

Who needs a glass?

Oh, the algae growing on your glass is a benthic algae as opposed to free-living phytoplankton.

I am not the expert on algae but my guess would be the average particle size generated when you scrape your glass is much larger that the average cell size of nannochloropsis for example. You may still have some animals that consume those particles, but not to the degree that consume phytoplankton.


John


John

 

[jamesw]

ROFL, by definition, Phytoplankton = non-swimming-drifting-plant.

Therefore if it's growing in your glass, it's not plankton.

Some more interesting trivia while we are at it: Nekton = plankton which can swim.

HTH
james