Generation gap in experience

[fishfarmer]

Being a new reefer, I'll say getting the information into the hands and minds of newbies is key.

When I first started my read into reef tanks two years ago I didn't know the internet had informative sites like this one. I didn't even have a home computer yet. I started reading outdated books. I then picked up a few new magazines which had the basics about reefkeeping, but still had differing opinions about substrates(Plenum v. DSB). At the time I believed in my LFS, because at the time his display tank looked good. A couple years later after many trips to the LFS's in the area I realized the lack of experience/information my stores had.

Most of the LFS's in my area don't even carry magazines and only the occasional new book. When I first found this board I read almost every post I could and searched old files when I couldn't find the answer before posting.

As for "bridging the gap" I think you will always have a few newbies who think they know more than the next person. That's life, try to educate them if you can. The wealth of knowledge is there, just hope they apply it.

 

[golfish]

Terry,
Until there are no more LFS, the Newbie will always be missinformed. Since the LFS will never go away we're stuck here trying to do our best. The funny thing is that all us guys with "experience" disagree all the time

 

[Sea Serpent]

I have been reading this topic with mixed-reactions . . . I am relatively new (2 years) into reefing - and I have asked a few questions and received many good answers from the "Oldies" on this board. There are newbies in ANY hobby who will not listen to advice, but in the case of reefs, ignorance will hurt or kill innocent animals. They will generally not be in the hobby for long - they will have no long-term success. Those who are serious DO read books - and ask questions. I for one, have been "lurking" for many, many months, but don't post often because it is intimidating. I am so afraid of saying something stupid - that I say nothing at all. My tank is going beautifully because of all of the info you have helped me with (especially the DSB)- but I was motivated to start with . . .
But I beg to differ with golfish's post about:
"Until there are no more LFS, the Newbie will always be missinformed. Since the LFS will never go away we're stuck here trying to do our best."
While it is true that many LFS's are behind the times on the techniques of reef keeping, I think it is unfair to say that there should be no more LFS. I can't believe that that is what you meant to say . . . was it?
Sea Serpent

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SPC:
<strong>
I like your idea Righty, but as others have stated, how do we come up with answers we all agree with (ie, me and Ernie and tangs, oh my

).
Steve</strong><hr></blockquote>

We wont come up with the answers we all agree with. But we may come up with a bunch of simple ideas that newbies may find useful, or which they can use to communicate better with oldies.
Anyway I started the thread so we can see if it works!

RR

 

[Anonymous]

I think if we are interested in trying to "fix" this kind of problem, we should make up a thread, which I will start if more than me thinks it is a good idea, that lists what we think newbies should know about reefing in general, and they type of info we need from them in order to help them. Then, when a newbie asks newbie questions, we could direct them to that thread instead of asking them to do a search on everything. Whaddya all think? Willing to add your two cents?

RR

 

[golfish]

Sea Serpent,
Obviously the LFS will never go away. I live in So Cal, there are tons of LFS here. 99% of them give bad outdated advice. Without a doubt this is the biggest problem we face.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

While it is true that many LFS's are behind the times on the techniques of reef keeping,

This would not be very accurate if you knew the LFS around here. We're talking $$$$ here. Every LFS is in it for only one reason. Things might be different where your at and I can only speak for the LFS that I have been too. I visit a store that every person here knows about. This is a very well known online store. They don't always give out the best advice and keep critters that should not be sold.

Mark

 

[Anonymous]

Sea serpent,
Don't be afraid of saying something stupid. I do it all the time and it doesn't hurt.

Terry, excellent thread!

SPC, No it isn't my bedtime yet

The topic,
I would agree with your premise. I think a part of it also is that the "more experienced", or maybe "serious" hobbiest is trying to learn as much as possible, often delving into the chemistry, physics, etc of the animals we so love. That is one thing I love about MACO. It gives us the tip of the iceberg and gives us tools to look at the rest of the iceberg. While we are spending our time studying to help our critters we see threads from the same person that has ignored advise, sometimes we just lower the boom. That doesn't make it right, by any means. One of the things I find hard to do is remembering where I started. Martin Moe was a "reef God" if that gives you some idea. I know i made mistakes, heck, probably last week, but many are hard to remember. I do all the research i can and make a decision based on, mostly, other peoples experience, the knowledge I have gained in research and an estimation of my skills with other less difficult, comprable animals.
It is kind of like when my daughter and sons ask how to spell something, I send them to the dictionary. When they ask a history question, i send them to the encyclopedias. The old saw, give a man a fish feed him for a day, teach a man to fish feed him for a lifetime. In many instances, and I see it with my kids, I want it now. The patience and desire to truly learn is not often there. If I can point someone in the direction to learn, and they only want the answer to the question, I can't help them. IMO, they don't want help, they want a solution. Shoot, I ask questions and don't even get answers. Maybe that is because see first sentence of post

Solution,
It doesn't matter if I can't remember the exact mistakes. I know, and everyone here knows, they/I have made them. We have all killed animals through ignorance, defiance, and experimentation. Leading edge people will continue to kill animals, only not through ignorance, but to further the hobby, just as test pilots die to better planes. It is up to those of us that have the experience to lead those without. If we don't they will likely kill a lot of animals. If they have been scared away, it is not just their fault, but also ours because we have forgotten where we came from. As a drunk that doesn't drink today, I know the danger of forgetting. I am glad you had/have patience with me. But my skin is a little thicker now, and my flame suit is always right next to my chair. I hope this means something to you.

Well, it is now pat my bedtime ;D, good noght and happy reefing

 

[SPC]

Well said Steve, now go to bed!

Steve

 

[whirley]

What gets me is some newbie that buys a 75 gallon tank and a skilter/seaclone, and puts in 20000 fish into the tank.

Or some guy who buys a nurce shark into a 40 gallon tank.

I still consider myself a newbie (6 years)...
but somethings are just common sense.

whirley

 

[HARRISON]

Hmmm, I have been avoiding this post to see what people would have to say. The funny thing is that, for once, most of us agree. We all want to help each other out to have great tanks and we all want to raise our critters to be healthy and long lived. The old farts want to help the newbies and the newbies are for the most part eager to learn.

Couple of points. (of course) We kinda take for granted that people know how to search and what to search for. Hell I just figured out how to post a picture. And another is people can read and read and read but until someone makes it mean something to them as an individual or about their specific tank, they may not get it. I know I don't have all or even many of the answers, but i know when someone asks about a coral or fish and I have it I can certainly give them my two cents. I like to joke with them a little but I try to tell them what works "for me". Now remember too, that we all come here to exchange ideas. We listen to a variety of problem solvers pontificate about how well things work or why they work the way they do, but there are many ways to do things and lets face it, we all have different tanks, water, and animals. I listen to someone say that a flowerpot is the easiest coral they have to keep. Yeah well in the back of my head I think " yeah cause no one knows why it is still alive" but then I hear many others advise not to get it. What you say may makes perfect sense to you but not much to others. Or in turn you may blow it off as a little thing and I might be up for the rest of the night trying what you said cause it finally clicked.

I guess my point is, we all have the same basic desire or destination, we just have to listen to enough ideas to figure out how to get there. Be patient with the newbies, and me, I really depend on the info I get here. In turn, I feel I should share what I know.

whew, blew out my fingers...

You guys are awsome though! I appreciate all of you. Golfish, thanks for hanging in there after all those long hard years...hahaha

 

[31-2c]

Just read any topic started by Kurtis.

Of course, if you reply to one of his topics, you get uncalled for responses for saying what everyone else is thinking.

 

[danmhippo]

Does cops always get people's name wrong?

It's "Kirtis", not "Kurtis". (I think he may have mispelled his name)

Now, let's stop name calling!

 

[BCReefer]

My $1.00 worth.

As a new person to SW 7 months I have found that I need to go in stages. 1st stage FOWLR then add corals, Anemones etc as I gained experience. Sometimes when someone asks a question, the explanation is very difficult to understand as it goes into too much detail. Sometimes a simple answer using a point form is much easier to understand.

I know by looking at people home pages that the electronics they use is far over my head that I don’t even try to understand what they are doing. Of course that is today, in a few months maybe I will add something new. Before I do this I will of course post my question on the BB to see what other people think. To be honest I never thought of using the “search engine” - I will now though.

So when some people answer the same question over and over again remember to KISS – “Keep It Simple Stupid”

Lastly even a new person can do something different that works.

Patrick

 

[Anonymous]

I think there is a role that us "middlers"can play. You old salts are tired of answering the questions like; "what is this brown algae bloom in my new tank?"
Perhaps that is where us middlers with a couple - a few years of experience fit in. By now the middlers know the answer to that question. We can take the "gimme" questions for you folks.
Heck, I think we're already on it.

 

[Anonymous]

Patrick,
You said even a new person can do something different that works. I have to agree. The question I have to ask, though, is does the new person have any idea at all why it worked? In most cases, I would say no. Some/many of the "experienced reefers keep a log to track things that go on in their tanks. When trying "something different" the attention payed is much higher, and frequently, documented. I think that is one of the things that seperates the experienced from the new. The undestanding of the need for logs. There is also the knowledge there, probably, to see things going not quite right instead of finding them gone wrong. IMO, like pretty much everything in life, the difficult should be saved for later. One doesn't start on their PhD before their BS. In case you can't tell, that statement is one of those that gets under my skin

 

[coralite1]

I would have to blame the "attitude" gap for most of the associated newbie/oldie posts. I always have the time for any aquarist that has a genuine, wholehearted interest in knowing and learning how to take care of their captives. But nothing gets my goat more than an ignorant fish killer who comes to me with their problem expecting me to fix it w/o any relevant details. On the other hand, the aquarium hobby is one for which there is no specific field of education and so, nameless aquarium gurus seem to pop up all the time. The internet is their haven where they can hide behind a name and spit out their interpretation from an aquarium text as their experiences. Some people are just desperate to be heard. Also, we all know that the aquarium hobby is an expensive one and that invites the more haughty to flaunt thier tank as a status symbol. I try to take every case one at a time.

 

[naesco]

A good example of the difficulty is the current tangs for 200 gallon thread.
The guy asks our advice. Many volunteer that the Powder Blue is extremely difficult to keep. None recommend it.
The guy decides on a powder blue anyway because his friends got one.
Am I now expected to reply to his 'HELP Powder blue tang sick' post.
I think not.

 

[pathos]

there is no "generation gap" in experience, experience is linear

we are all alike in our pursuit of the mastery of this hobby

there is more than one way to skin a cat


with guidance, have faith that people will do the right thing

don't be bothered by things you cannot change, focus on the things you can

whoa, pathos is gettin' existential over here, somebody stop him...

 

[Scott D Passe]

Hi All,

I agree with chucker about the “burnout” factor.

The same questions do come up again and again and I personally deal with this by writing all of my posts as a word document, and then pasting them into a post, as required.

Usually they require “tweaking” of a few words, but they also get “fine tuned” and updated with age.

On the patience issue, sometime newbies need to wait for a little while for an answer as I think an “old salt” can serve the other members by just making sure that a question gets a satisfactory answer, without having to personally answer each question.

The LFS component is often a challenge as, if nothing else, nobody really wants to be told that they have just been “suckered” by a merchant.

Regards,

Scott Passe

 

[Anonymous]

The same questions do come up again and again and I personally deal with this by writing all of my posts as a word document, and then pasting them into a post, as required.

Y'know, I tried that on rec.aquaria.marine.reefs three years or so back. I got an amazing amount of attitude from folks who were insulted that they only got a canned response instead of me taking the time to put a post together for them personally.