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JeremyR

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<<Put it this way. If it were a reef, how many fish could you have?
About a third of what you could have in a fish only with wet dry and mechanical. >>

That's absolutely not true.. live rock/sand can handle more load than a wet dry and mechanical.. I can't tell you how many customers I have who run FOWLRs with no mechanical or biofiltration and have successful tanks. Look at it from a surface area standpoint.. filters work by providing surface area for bacteria and running water over/thru that area. How much surface area do plastic balls have, and how much surface area does live rock/sand have? There is no comparison. Anyways, in my situation.. I have large fish who want room.. 4 fish in a 600 gallon tank doesn't sound like alot, but when they are ranging from 12" to 24", it's enough movement for me. I know that amount of rock/sand/skimmer could handle much more load from past experience, I'm just choosing not to put more than that in mine.. but the same setup rules apply to any FO.
Anyways, just my .02
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davelin315

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I agree with Ryan about the puffers doing the same thing as triggers. I also have a large stars and stripes/hispidus puffer that blows the sand as well.

Let me take the opportunity to address a couple different types of filtration methods (very briefly):

Wet/Dry or Trickle Filter: hosts large quantities of nitrosomas bacteria (could have the name wrong, but they're the ones that work aerobically), knocks are that they have been termed "nitrate factories" because they typically only house aerobic bacteria and very little to no anaerobic bacteria, bonuses are they can be modified to add the anaerobic bacteria through the introduction of DSBs to the sump area and also, they handle large biological tank loads.

DSB: serves as a host for aerobic bacteria in the top layers of sand, and anaerobic bacteria in the lower levels of sand, benefits are that it eventually will maintain your water quality by processing waste from the time it exits your livestock through the time it bubbles out as gas and exits your tank, almost like the concept of a landfill where the gas seeping out of the decaying garbage is burned as methane gas (hence the bad smell of a landfill), negatives are they can "bond" together if you do not have a good supply of detrivores and other sand creatures to keep the sand particles moving around (it's the bacteria that will fuse together and take the sand with it basically creating cement), and it is subject to being ruined by fish (which is why Mike Milz' idea about eggcrating an inch below the surface is a great idea to protect the integrity of your DSB).

Berlin or Live Rock: LR houses a host of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria, and live rocks value is determined by how porous it is and therefore, how much life it can support inside it, some live rock is much less dense and is therefore a better filter, while some (I think Puerto Rican LR is basically like buying hunks of granite, which is pretty useless for filtration) is very dense, and hosts very little bacteria, bonuses are it can maintain water quality (not as well as DSBs) through total filtration, it is easy to aquascape, it comes covered and filled with interesting life (although I have my doubts about how effective extremely coralline encrusted LR can be at filtering if you reduce its surface area by covering it with dense coralline), negatives are that it can come with some undesireable life and it needs to be cured at some point in time as a lot of life dies off during its dry shipping from where it is collected to the wholesaler, and from the wholesaler to your LFS, and from there to you, you need a lot and it's EXPENSIVE!

Plenum: don't know much about this, but it is similar to a DSB with the exception that you create an anaerobic zone of water under the DSB by elevating your bed a bit (I think) which creates an area for water to gather and be filtered, I have heard they are relatively sensitive, but I don't know much about them and I could be wrong about the system and how it's set up.

UG Filter: filter plate which pulls the water down through your substrate (needs to be larger size to allow the water to flow through) which collects waste in your substrate and hopefully below the filter plate, or, you can reverse the flow, and keep your substrate clean, although waste can still accumulate from the bottom up as you're pumping water up through it from the tank, bonuses, it keeps your surface substrate relatively clean, negatives, it offers almost no anaerobic filtration, and you need to vacuum out your substrate and clean under the plate periodically. Side not, UG Filters can easily be converted to Plenums by capping off the lift tubes.

External filters: offer areas for mechanical and chemical filtration, but very little area for biological filtration, will keep your water very clean, though. Some canister filters offer biological, mechanical, and chemical filtration, like the eheims, but I don't know how effective they are, although they are very convenient (I used to use the old eheim canister filters for chemical filtration, now my sump is in my stand versus in the other room so I just use my wet dry).

UV Sterilizers: will kill off bacteria and anything living in your water that is filtered through it, excellent for inhibiting disease outbreaks and algae blooms, but also will kill off plankton in your water column, just like the name suggests, it creates a sterile environment for your fish (I run one on my reef as well, but there's so much life there, it doesn't have the chance to kill it all off, it's just used as an aid to prevent too much stuff in the water).

Rules of Thumb: the larger your substrate, the more likely it is to collect detritus/waste; fish can disturb your substrate so be careful about which fish you choose for what kind of substrate (some also require certain types of substrates); the deeper your bed, the more creatures you will need in it to keep it from sticking together (unless you are using larger substrate materials, which I have used in the past, although it doesn't hurt to have them there anyway); fish like great water quality, so do the most filtration you can!

Finally, you'll find different advocates and opponents of different systems everywhere you look, so do the research, figure out which one sounds the best for what you want to do (or even combine them all together!) and do it! Also, if you are creative, you can design your own concepts (I did a lot of that in college to the chagrin of the people who lived below us as I created filters that would leak and crack and flooded them a couple of times) that will maximize the biological load you can house.

Well, I guess I wasn't so brief, but I think that I gave a pretty simple explanation of the major types of filtration, so hopefully it helped when taken with the advice given above in other posts.
 

naesco

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I suppose DaveLin is right as he has a picasso which disturbs the sand. I have a niger trigger which does not blow. If you have a DSB and rock with no corals maybe the sand blowing would not be a problem unless it really blows.
Its a balance between no maintenance and the sand problem.
I know about moving sand, eh, as I have an engineer goby that wrecks my small reef tank. On the positive side, you have a an every changing landscape.
 

Josh's Reef

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Like jeremy its just MO. In the past 18 years that I have been maintaining marine fish and inverts, not to mention the countless tanks Ive helped set up; It just seems that the healthiest tanks nitrate and disease wise have had the least amount of substrate and rock.
I mean how many of us had stired up a tanks sand bed and rock structure only to create an ich outbrake. Atleast in reef tanks that mostly dont use UV's. Unfortunatly alot of people forget that our tanks regarless of size( under 1000 gal.) are very small and very delicate systems.
just trying to help my fish tank bros.
 

Josh's Reef

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P.S. jeremy, are you sure you still want to stick by your guns and say that you can have more fish in a reef than FO. At least thats what I understand from (you trying to get me?) the first line of your post. Because we can create a thread asking that question.
But if its not than I apologize.
 

JeremyR

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Hey Josh,

I wouldn't personally load up a reef with fish because my interest there is the corals.. but I do put a few fish in them. What I'm getting at in this thread is that a fish only with a reef style setup (live sand, live rock, skimmer.. otherwise known as FOWLR)can handle a very heavy fish load, as heavy as any old style FO based on a wet dry or fluidized or any combo of filtration. Almost all of my customers with FO's use this type of filtration setup, and most of them are so successful with it, that after awhile I only get to sell them fish food and salt because the fish don't keep dying and they don't have continual water quality issues that the people who went with the wet dry or whatever have. Btw, I"m not trying to get you.. just sharing my opinion.
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On the subject of fish that poke around in the sand.. I have a masked RS puffer (panda) that is constantly blowing in the sand.. I've never seen any adverse effects to the system of this behavior.. and I would not let this type of fish deter you from setting up a sandbed. The idea of eggcrate partway down that someone posted is a good idea as well.. people used to do similar things in cichlid tanks back when UG filters were king to keep the fish from digging thru the substrate and baring the UG plate.
 

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