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Jeff Hood

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I almost died today of a heart attack when all of a sudden in the kitchen where I store My Co2 tank, there was the loudest hissing screech I have ever heard. I run to the kitchen and see this white fog comming from where the tank was. It was so loud I could barley approach it. I was afraid to open the door but I did. It was completly empty in about 2 minutes. Evidently the pop off valve opened a few hours after I had it filled. I thought the tank had ruptured. I thought I was scared but when I saw the look on my wifes face I knew I was in trouble. She was standing right in front of it when it went off. My dogs won't even go into the kitchen right now. The bottle is frozen solid and there is frost everywhere.

What the heck happened? Did they just over fill the bottle. Im familiar with Scuba tanks but these Co2 bottles are new to me. Are they a liquid like nitrous oxide or are they just compressed Co2? I know they rate them by weight which suggests its a liquid. If thats the case then the pressure should be constant until the liquid is exhausted then the pressure will drop like our nitrous cyllinders at work. I noticed the pressure when I opened the valve was greater than 1200. actually off the scale.

Wow I need a drink!

Jeff
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Coraltank

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Jeff,They are compressed CO2 gas,but can be very dangerous.The frost and fog result from the compressed gas escaping to a lower pressure surrounding(it's how Air Conditioning works).Not sure what happened to your prv(Pressure relief Valve).It could have been worse.ALWAYS secure your tanks in an upright position.HTH.Was that Bing Crosby in the background.
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Jeff Hood

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Thanks Coraltank.
I understand the thermal dynamics involved but what I don't understand is why did the darn Pop off valve let go? I guess the guy just simply overfilled the tank. If that is the case then why did it take an Hour for this to happen? very weard. It has not done this before but this is only the second time the tank has been filled. Now that I think about it the tank was suddenly empty when I got back from vacation. The pressure at that time was 800 psi and did not change since I got the bottle filled the first time. When I got home it was completly empty. Maybe this has happened before and I was not home to see it.

Jeff
 

oyster

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the compressed CO2 should be in liquid form. as what coraltank mentioned, always place it in an upright position.

The pressure in the tank should gradually decrease when the CO2 is utilised, over a few months. 1200 is abit on the high side, but i don't think it will damage a working tank. the reason what happened could be that the valve was broke or the person who refilled the tank did not secure the valve properly. HTH
 

KenH

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My tanks are usually filled to around 800psi if I remember correctly. Sure sounds like they overfilled it if your off the scale at 1200psi. The other thing that can cause pressure to increase is if the tank gets heated up. I did a leak test on a newly filled tank and was washing it off under hot water and it was surprising how quickly the pressure started to go up before I realized what I was doing.

CO2 tanks will tend to hold close to their original pressure until almost all the CO2 is gone and then they can drop pretty quickly, so that may be what happened last time.

Also keep in mind that although CO2 is not toxic, it is possible to die of suffocation if it displaces all the oxygen in the room. That is how a CO2 fire extinguisher basically works.

--- Ken
 

Jeff Hood

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Yes KenH, My first fill was 800 psi.
On nitrous oxide ( stored as liquid) tanks the pressure is 760 psi and it will remain at that psi until all of the liquid is exhausted then the pressure will start to drop indicating an empty cylinder. If Co2 is indeed stored in our tanks in a liquid then it should maintain a constant pressure until all the liquid is used up then and only then will the pressure start to drop. In liquid filled cyllinders that is how pressure is related to volume. As gas is used more of the liquid will be converted to gas in the cylinder. With a pure compressed gas cyllinder the pressure is directly proportional to the volume of gas left in the cylinder so as gas us used the pressure will drop.

My tank did not get hot and not sure what exactly happened. Ill find out more when I go to the welding shop later this week. Ill ask them what they think.

Jeff
 

jdeets

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Jeff--I've done some 'net research on this in response to other threads. What I've found out is that whether the CO2 in your tank exists in liquid or gas form depends on the temperature of the tank. Also, the pressure of the tank will be directly related to the temperature of the tank. Heating one of these tanks when full (for example, leaving it in a hot car) can be disastrous. If it's heated enough so that it exists in a homogeneous semi-liquid/gas state (as opposed to liquid at the bottom and gas at the top) the pressure really gets dangerous.

You are correct that the pressure of the tank should remain constant (assuming constant temperature) until the tank is almost empty. At room temperature, the CO2 should be in liquid form, except for the gas pocket at the top of the tank. Once the pressure begins to drop you've got 3-4 days left.

1200 psi is definitely WAY too much pressure. They must've filled that bugger up so that it was 100% liquid inside, or very nearly so.

Glad everyone is OK. If you ever notice your pressure over 800 in the future, don't use it but take it back.
 

reefland

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If the pressure does get that high again, I wouldn't risk the car ride taking it back. Just take the unit outside and vent it slightly. With the regulator attached, plug it in, open the valve and adjust the needle valve to full open to release pressure and stand back just in case.
 

Nathan1

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Ok. I'm moving my CO2 tank tonight when I get home from work. My CO2 tank is under my aquarium in the cabinet, if something like this were to happen to me, the glass floor of my aquarium would shatter and there would be a major disaster!

Thanks for letting us know about this. I'm sorry it happened to you!

Did all the CO2 affect the pH of your aquarium? Did you remember to grab the CO2 canister with a towel, and not your bare hands (freeze-burn)?

-Nathan
 

Len

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Good info here.

Question: my CO2 guage reads a little over 1100 psi. Everytime I get it filled, it reads over 1000. Is it possible to bleed off some gas, or should I return the bottle? Everything's been fine for the last month of operation, but this thread has admittingly got me a little worried. Tank is in my cabinent @ about a constant 80 degrees F.

[edit] The CO2 FAQ URL provided states that up to 1500 psi is acceptable (unless in very hot conditions), and that the relief valve should maintain up til at least 2200 psi.

[ July 24, 2001: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

Nathan1

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Temperature has quite an effect on the pressure inside your canister. On hot days my gauges read up to 1142psi and on cold days it may read as low as 785psi

-Nathan
 

Jeff Hood

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Well when I noticed my gauge just after I hooked it up it was pegged high so don't even know what the absolute pressure was. The bottle is rated on the side at 14 pounds but he said he put in 20 pounds.

The car ride home was hot but the tank felt very cold to the touch when I picked it up. It was hooked up in the house for about 30 min to an hour before the discharge. I keep it in the kitchen and the plumbing is run through the wall into the living room where the tank is, so no distaster to the tank. Ill just have him underfill it next time and we will see. Its amazing what 20 pounds of Co2 gas looks like in the kitchen with your wife running like mad and even the dogs are freaking out.

Thanks everybody for the information. I did not realize the pop off valves were single use only. I did not realize storing these things was so touchy. Should I have let it set for a while before hooking it up and running it to stabalize the pressure or just bleed it down to around 800 psi?

Jeff
 

Ben1

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You should also make sure your tank was hydrostatically tested and stamped. I have a 5# bottle that reads around 1100 today after 2 months use. Mine was stamped in 94' seems it needs to be tested. I know with scuba tanks they must be tested and stamped every 5 years, I am not sure if CO2 is the same but it should have been tested and stamped check it out. Also maybe when the bottle was refilled the person lost your rubber o ring inside the valves connection. Just a thought.
 

eaglet

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I play paint ball and have experienced this several times firsthand( no fun having 20
oz of co2 dump on your back). All CO2 containers and lines are rated for 4 times
their holding pressure, all except the rupture disk. Its rating is for 1/2 the pressure of the tank. When filled, the Co2 tank must be super chilled to except the liquid CO2. This is done buy keeping the container in the freezer or in an ice bath for and extended time or you can "fill and dump" the tank(like when your gas escaped
how the tank froze). The important thing here is that the tank not be overfilled.
There is a residual air space that allows the liquid CO2 to "boil" off. If over-filled the liquid gas has no escape and will blow the pop valve. CO2 expands 200 times
its volume. This pop valve is designed to disperse the gas in such a way that
it does not make the container a projectile. You can get replacement pop valves from a welding supply place or 1-888-paintball. For more info on co2 and gasses
research www.warpig.com. Also there are home fill kits for co2. For those of you with limited space in the cabinet you could store a 15 lb tank in closet and put a 20 oz under the stand. Just refill it yourself. Email me if you must know more.

E-Man
 

BReefCase

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Jeff - The shop didn't over-fill your CO2 tank. Even if they had pumped it completely full with liquid CO2, the pressure would not get dangerously high at normal room temperature -- once the cylinder was full of liquid CO2, no more liquid would fit and the shop's pump would stall, as liquids are virtually incompressible.

It sounds more like you just ran afoul of a basic law of thermodynamics. Follow me on this, because it is lengthy:

The pressure inside a closed cylinder containing a volatile non-polar liquid like CO2 is determined solely by the characteristic VAPOR PRESSURE of the substance, not by how many pounds of liquid are put into it. Vapor pressure is defined as the pressure of the vapor of a liquid in equilibrium with its liquid state. (Solids have vapor pressure, too, even though that seems odd at first. Just think of dry ice, which is solid CO2 but turns to vapor very quickly due to its high vapor pressure at room temp.)

As long as a CO2 cylinder is at a reasonable, constant temperature, as gas is (slowly) used out of the cylinder liquid CO2 "boils" off as gaseous CO2, at the vapor pressure of CO2 at that temperature. This is about 860 psi at normal room temperature, or about 72 degrees Fahrenheit. This process of evaporation continues until all the liquid CO2 is gone. That is why CO2 tank pressure is constant (at a given temperature) until it's almost empty (i.e., no liquid is left), and then falls off rapidly as the remaining residual gas is quickly used up.

Rapidly releasing gas will lower the tank temperature dramatically (as you observed in your frozen kitchen) due to expansion cooling as the CO2 soaks up its "heat content of evaporation" from the surrounding environment, but we can ignore that tiny effect for normal slow CO2 usage rates. (This is also why aerosol cans sometimes get very cold to the touch if you spray them too quickly for too long.).

So, as strange as it seems, how much liquid CO2 (in pounds) was put into your cylinder had NOTHING to do with its internal tank pressure. Just as long as there was SOME liquid present inside the cylinder, the internal pressure was identically fixed at the vapor pressure of CO2.

There are four basic things that can influence vapor pressure - the "polar" or "non-polar" nature of the molecules of the substance, how much surface area of the liquid is exposed to the gas in the cylinder (i.e., cylinder diameter in this case), the concentration of the vapor molecules above the liquid, and lastly TEMPERATURE. In your case, on the inside of a closed CO2 cylinder at equilibrium everything else is fixed (held constant), so TEMPERATURE is all that controls the CO2 vapor pressure, and thus temperature is also all that controls the pressure inside the tank. As other people in this thread have noted, CO2 tank pressure varies with the temperature, and this is why.

"Polar" substances have di-polar molecules, i.e., they have positive and negative ends to the molecules. The inter-molecular forces acting on polar liquids are much stronger and the liquid molecules are kept in the liquid state easier. Polar substances tend to have lower vapor pressures at a given temperature.
On the other hand, if the molecules of a liquid are non-polar like those of CO2, then there will be weaker intermolecular forces keeping them in the liquid state. Non-polar substances like CO2 have weaker forces between them and therefore their vapor pressures are characteristically higher than those of polar substances. The rate of evaporation for non-polar molecules is generally far greater than polar molecules in comparison. This gives CO2 its comparatively high vapor pressure.

Any increase in the temperature of the CO2 tank increases the average kinetic energy present in the molecules of the liquid CO2. The more energy that the surface liquid molecules absorb (heat), the faster they will be able to overcome the intermolecular forces acting upon them, and the sooner they will become vapor.

Here's the really nasty part that apparently bit you with your CO2 cylinder. Increasing the temperature of a liquid increases it's vapor pressure not linearly, but LOGARITHMICALLY. Doubling absolute temperature increases pressure by a factor of ten times.

This is defined by the Clausius-Clapyron Equation, that you probably remember having seen in science class:

Log P2 / P1 = Delta H vaporization [ 1 / T1 - 1/T2] / 2.303 ( R)

where:

R = universal gas law constant = 8.31 J/mol-K = 8.31 X 10-3 Kj / mol-K

P1 and P2 = vapor pressure at T1 and T2

T1 and T2 = Kelvin Temperature at the initial state and final state

This tells us that at about 40 degrees Fahrenheit, CO2 has a vapor pressure of 600 psi. At 72 degrees F, it's up to about 860. At about 80 degrees F, the CO2 vapor pressure rises to about 970 psi. So, if your pressure gauge before your uncontrolled CO2 discharge was off-the-dial at over 1200 psi, the internal temp must have climbed to 90 degrees F or more due to where the tank was located, or due to being in the car.

Does this seem reasonable to you given conditions in your house/car, Jeff? (Feeling the outside of the metal tank won't tell you much, because the thermal conductivity of metal is so high it will likely feel cool to the touch of your 98.6 degree hand, even if it is relatively hot inside.) If so, the CO2 was well into the highly dangerous and unpredictable so-called "critical zone."

The critical zone is temperatures and resulting pressures above the "critical point," a unique combination of temperature and pressure for a given substance at and above which gas and liquid begin to behave the same, and normal fluid dynamics laws no longer hold. For CO2, this critical point is 88.88 degrees F, at about 1080 psi vapor pressure. It is unclear to science what state of matter the CO2 would be said to be in at and above this point - gas or liquid. At or above these temps, all bets are off as far as guessing the fluid behavior and/or the gas pressure of the CO2 inside the cylinder.

(I'm pretty sure I did the calculation here correctly, but math is not really my thing and I did do these calculations on the fly, so corrections are welcome from you more math-savy reef keepers out there.)

Bottom line - be very careful with heat and bottled CO2. If you leave it in a car, house, or closet with temps above 90 degrees or so, you are asking for big, big trouble. The only reason more people don't blow themselves off the face of the earth messing around with these compressed CO2 cylinders is because industry standard tanks are so tremendously over-engineered, to protect us from ourselves for both safety and liability reasons.

The total pressure acting on the total square inches of the walls of a typical size cylinder at 1000 psi or more is mind-blowing (pun intended). If you really did badly overheat your CO2 cylinder, you were fortunate that a small valve failed before the tank walls ruptured. As mentioned before in this thread, tanks contain rupture disks to prevent this.

So, keep those CO2 tanks cool, people. ALWAYS below 80 degrees, for sure. (Your pressure gauge should never read more than 1000 psi. If it does but your room temp is below 80, suspect that the gauge needs recalibrating.)

Forewarned is forearmed.
 

imow

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Is there a certain distance away from the reef tank when the CO2 wouldnt make it to the ca reactor. In other words, can I put my co2 cylinder in the basement with the reactor upstairs??
 

BReefCase

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imow -- Sure, that should work well. Even if your basement were only 40 degrees Fahrenheit, the CO2 would still flow at 600 psi, so you should be able to remote your tank any reasonable distance inside your house. Just be sure to use plumbing that can take the pressure.

Storage/installation of CO2 tanks in a basement room with no heat sources is a good way to keep the cylinders at a constant cool temperature year round.
 

KenH

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Imow, it would also seem to be very important that you use the proper CO2 leak resistant tubing for a long tubing run to avoid major gas loses through the tubing walls.

--- Ken
 

suckair

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In every tank valve is a copper disk called a burst disk.

The usual pressure of co2 is 800lbs and most burst disks are slightly above this pressure for saftey reasons.

It may be possible that the tank was in direct sunlight which can cause the pressure to rise way above 800 lbs and rupture the disk. It may also be possible that the disk was weekened at a earlier time and just finaly ruptured.

When tanks are first filled there is little area for compressed gass to collect and chance of rupture is much highrer. Combine this with the fact that the bottle was probably in direct sunlight and there goes the disk!

I have seen it many times on the paint ball field!
 

Len

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Breefcase,

Thank you!

I'll be bringing my tank out of my cabinent now. However unsightly it may be, I'm more concerned with what a sudden release of CO2 could do to my tank, not to mention my family/friends. Asphyxiation or aesthetics ... hmmm, tough call
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BTW, I am still unable to locate a source that references osmotic gradient model for denitrification. I don't completely doubt that I may have read it at some time or another, and so I still look whenever time allows me; but I keep coming up with blanks.
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