3 STRIKES, I'M OUT

[danmhippo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EmilyB:
<STRONG>WOW.

I'm really happy that you "experts" found the way so easily, and expect no mistakes before others find their way here.

</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sure those expert (I don't like the choice of the word, prefer more as better experienced) all hoped people would follow and try to avoid same mistake twice, actually more than twice. I believe we all knows whose word weigh more when we reads their posts. I also believe most of us here on the board all respect one another even if opinions differs.

 

[EmilyB]

No. You still don't understand.

I began my SW experience with an LFS and a person I trusted. He didn't even sell us a tank, he sent us home with a book. That was great, but then, he was gone. The incidents after that were too great to mention, but I will try.

Bad installations, bad fish advice, no advice available, and DUH....we didn't know about fish advice on the NET. WELL, call me an imbecile, I mean I work on a friggin' computer all day as I am an accountant, (don't yawn at this point in the story). So, after they sold me two friggin' harlequins that died, I thought crap, there has to be something wrong here. I went to RAMM, later RAMR. Thank Christopher I didn't come here.

I have done nothing but research the past two years, whenever I can. My tanks show the result of that. But I was that person. The one you think is an idiot.

 

[nala]

I am wondering what(who) puts a member at "expert" status?

The guy who started this(ahem)thread has been a member since May 2001

AND in his expert status decided to keep a "small
Sailfin Tang in my 40g for algae control(he was not flamed for this BTW)"

Does anyone actually go back and read members contributions BEFORE they are deemed "experts". Now he is the guy who say's "I looked on your website and you have a 120g tank...to small for a Tang". His is there for algae control...the rest of us buy them for the sole purpose of cramping them up until they catch ich and DIE

I guess now "I" will get flamed for pointing out the obvious

Having a lot of posts means nothing more than having a lot of time on ones hands

For the new members who may have made it to page 2(

)...USE the search feature. It is VERY easy to see who actually having success...and who is practicing what they preach. Pictures speak a thousand words

Teri

 

[esmithiii]

ophiuroid:

Have you never bought collected specimines? I think the point is that many people on this board consistently take "the moral high ground" and spout off rhetoric about ethical practices when they themselves have lost fish to negligence, buy fish from sources that loose 50-80% of the fish/inverts taken from the natural habitat. Outraged or not, if you buy fish/inverts or even dry goods from a source that collects wild specimines then you too are no better than the poor soul who lost 30 fish (just more "enlightened.")

This is not a flame. I am not speaking to ophiuroid singly, but responding to her comments.

This board is about sharing information, not debating ethics. The phrase "you can catch more flys with honey than with vinager" is apropo. Many people are turned off when we give advice using smug language laced with overtones of moral superiority. Be kind and gentle when giving advice to someone who probably doesn't know better. Don't use this forum to remind everyone how much you care about the ethical/humane treatment of fish!

Green Lantern:

The occasional reference is one thing. Some people on this board cannot reply to a post about skimmers, powerheads or sumps without bringing in the issue of ethical reefkeeping!

 

[danmhippo]

Hmmm.....What a stupic thing I did going back to this thread!!!

I don't think people are taking words in the way I hope they took it.

Also, I am not refering to my posts, but I am amazed that everybody has incredible abilities to analyze each and every words in posts and use them for retaliation. I sincerely hope everyone can be more forgiving when you are reading and replying to a post.

(Sigh............................)

I am out too.

[ July 27, 2001: Message edited by: danmhippo ]

 

[Anonymous]

I am trying to figure out (and respond to) nala's post, but I am confused. Maybe others can help.
The person who started THIS thread is naesco.
I don't know naesco, but realize he/she is held in high regard by other group members as an experienced and succesful reefer. That's how he'she gets the "expert" moniker.
Now, a shortcoming of the boards is that kind of info isn't readliy available.

The tang growth thread was started by "marinelife" with a 120 gallon tank.

I never saw naesco's post saying he/she keeps a sailfin in a 40 gallon. I think nala is saying this came from a different thread, but I didn't see it because I don't read every post on every thread.
But I don't care too much either. I just don't want this board to lose vauluable experience. Nor do I want newbies to be scared away. Happy reefing to us all.

 

[ophiuroid]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by murrayjim:
<STRONG>If these are unacceptable losses, then why continue in the hobby. If the death of thirty fish is such an outrage shouldn't we be more outraged by the hobby itself? Why not lobby to put an end to the destruction of a threatened ecosystem? </STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I agree and I think we are talking more philosophically now...but much of experience and advice is so closely tied to one's philosophy/ethics. There are times that I am outraged by the hobby itself! But as the hobby will not be shut down soon (though I am sure some will try to do it), then at least we can remind people of their responsibility to take the best care of these animals as possible (they are a fairly precious commodity all considering), to read, to ask advice (and give it in a way that it is positive, informative and constructive) and to know when to be patient. Such discipline is notably absent from the hobby (people who join boards like these in an effort to learn anything are a minority). We need to keep this in mind- that people here are at least *asking*- but in asking one must listen too (though one should not tolerate rudeness). It is the failure of some to listen to any of the many bits of advice given by experienced reefers that I find the most frustrating...

 

[Green Lantern]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by esmithiii:
[QB]Once again I will repeat: THIS BOARD IS FOR SHARING INFORMATION, NOT FOR FURTHURING YOUR BELIEFS ON ETHICAL REEF KEEPING. IF YOU WANT TO TALK ETHICS, GO TO THE SUMP!
QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand how you expect people to keep their opinions relegated to one response when they are questioned and sometimes made to be the brunt of a joke for their beliefs.

I fully realize that the tang debate went on too long but it seems that it is an important point for those wishing to make people understand that there is a difference between fish species.

Your post could be taken as a "flame", though I'm sure you didn't mean it as such. That is the problem with the medium we are debating on, it has certain weaknesses. I certainly felt no ill will, (occasionally irratated maybe

), to those involved even if my views differed from theirs. I learned a lot in the thread in question.

I'd also like to say that each of the boards has troubled posts but just about all of the boards out there are dominated by informative threads and reefs.org is among the best. We owe a great deal to the people who take the time, not just to help troubled reefers, but to actually spend their time and money for a place to seek help in a challenging hobby for the rest of us.

 

[Anonymous]

nala,
you are correct. it says small yellow sailfin in a 45 gallon.
thanks for the reference.

 

[SPC]

Thanks nala for the link. As you might have noticed I was involved in that thread and remember it now. My thoughts at the time was that naesco had already mentioned that he had a 300 gallon tank, and I presumed that he would put the yellow in there when he out grew the 45. My only contention has been large fish, small tank with no thought to moving the fish to larger quarters. I have said in the past that I personally would not keep a Tang, thats my choice as I prefer to see my marine life in a more natural setting. Now, you may be able to do a search and see where I said something different, I hope I have been consistent however.
Steve
I would also like to say that out of the 50 or so posts I read this morning all of them contained extremely useful information given out by naesco.

[ July 27, 2001: Message edited by: SPC ]

 

[SPC]

esmithiii, you said "some people on this board cannot reply to a post about skimmers, powerheads or sumps without bringing in the issue of ethical reef keeping". I will ask you the same thing I asked 6_line the other day (who never gave me an answer) would you show us where this is a factual statement. I know we all get caught up in the heat of the moment, but in order to move ahead as a reefing community we should deal with facts. I am not saying your statement is false, I just dont recall anyone on this board ALLWAYS answering questions with an ethical point interjected.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Anyone that uses a skimmer is unethical

.

 

[esmithiii]

SPC: It was an exageration. I had you in mind, though

Let me restate it this way:

There are many people who post often enough in response to some question or other that are looking for help who get "your tank is too small and you are a cruel reefkeeper." Those comments come often enough from the same people that I find myself saying to myself "great, another post by so-and-so." I perceve (I could be wrong here) that others feel as I do.

I do appreciate all the advice and information I get from most of those people, but could do without the rhetoric. I have learned so much here. I think that some people have "big tank syndrome:" the idea that because my tank is bigger than yours, I am providing a happy, healthy, ethically contientious home for my fish, and you are not!

Once again, I appreciate the info I get here. That's why I come here often enough for my wife to say I am addicted!

 

[SPC]

esmithiii, I understand what you are saying and am sorry that you and others cringe when I post. I will say that the only reason I post anything is out of a deep caring for the animals we keep. I am not an elitist, I have seen well done 20 gallon reefs that look much nicer than my 180. As I have mentioned before, I waited 40 something years before I could afford a reef tank that I felt had the kind of equipment needed for long term sucess. I spent 6 months reading every thing I could that dealt with reef aquaria, and reef related subjects. During this time of planning I knew (from all my freshwater days) that I did not want large fish that seemed to be cramped in the home I provided for them. I also made the decission to purchase only tank raised corals and fish, and that I would only have fish in pairs to allow for reproduction, so as you can see, my choices of livestock are rather limited.
When I began my research I was absolutely amazed at the archaic way that livestock was still collected and the raping of the reefs that still occured. I would come to this board and see the long time dedicated hobbiest trying to promote ethical reef keeping and thought, thats great, there still is hope. Yesterday I went to about 7 other reef boards and read the first page of each. Only one, RC, had any threads that could be looked at as possibly controversial, and that thread was Tangs. There were about 10 posts on this thread and more than half said the same thing that some of us have said on our Tang posts. The last post, as of yesterday however, was by the RC administrator saying bad idea to the stocking plan of chris who participated on our latest Tang discussion.
I think that maybe a good idea would be to have a poll of some kind on this board to see if the membership is even interested in the ethical part of this hobby,maybe things have changed, or that maybe like you have said it needs to be in another area on this board. One last thing, and I mean this with no sarcasm, if you had my views would you even bother to post to this board or would you find another medium to discuss these subjects. Again, my apologies to anyone I might have offended, it wasn't personal.
Steve

[ July 27, 2001: Message edited by: SPC ]

 

[esmithiii]

SPC:

I looked over your recent posts, and I probably owe you an apology. I don't cringe when I see your name to the left of a reply. Some of your posts have seemed a bit harsh, but then again, I respect people who have strong beliefs. Once again I will state (not necessarily for you) that "you catch more flies with honey..."

I personally try to be responsible with what I try to keep, and I want to be responsible to the environment. A fish to me, though, is just a fish. I wonder why many times we complain about cramped living quarters for our fish after having chicken McNuggets for lunch.

There are so many things to feel guilty about these days! Did child labor make my Nikes? Is my toilet cleanser eventually poisoning the water table or local streams? Are the hydrocarbons from my car causing global warming? Should I shell out the $400 to change my refrigerant in my car from R12 to 134A? Do I shop in stores that hire the proper mix of employees from different ethnic backgrounds? The list goes on...

Sorry if I am rambling...

Ernie

 

[MontanaRocknReefer]

WHAT HAS HAPPENED? I have been hurt and out of work for 3 months and have been on a small vacation(thanks to my step-son) and have just come back to this board and another flame(or whatever you want to label it)and it is too bad.
We all need to come together and respect and give constructive criticism to all those who post here(whether newbies or veterans)can continue to improve and keep this hobby alive and something we can enjoy and appreciate far into the future.
We need to process information in a manner that will encourage new comers and they will spread the word about how great a board this is for learning and genuine care shown here for all.
Yes you will have people who seem to get pure enjoyment out of causing trouble for others and it is only because of their own frustrations. Well I could go on and on but I want to come here to learn and pass on my knowledge(in my own opinion)instead of wasting time settling a dispute. Johnny

 

[chris1]

SPC,

Im taking it that this is still referring back to the Tang thread:

"My question to all is why have this board at all if we are going to condone practices that have been proven to fail (IN THE LONG RUN) by experienced hobbiest"

When do you become an "experienced hobbiest"? I have been reefing now for 7 years. I have read until I thought my eyes were going to pop out of my head. I am not a fly by night reefer. I take the lives of my inhabitants extremely seriously. I would not put inhabitants together that I didnt have at least a degree of confidence that they would live well together. So the question is.....am I just considered an inexperienced hobbiest because I am doing something that doesnt agree with the mainstream philosophy? If so, then by going by the letter of the book I will be experienced? If so which book? And if we all go by the letter of the current books, then how will this hobby ever advance?

Also, in your post a few back, you again mentioned that I called naesco a fool. That comment was truely meant in general. Not at naesco in particular. The point that I was trying to make is that someone was posting a success story, and as usual someone has to try to prove their success wrong. Even though they are living proof. Then they inevitably throw around the buzz words "in the long run", because obviously it is working now. It is safe to say that eventually something will go wrong because that can not be measured to any degree. Just like a fortune teller will give you general statements so that eventually something they say will have to come true.

I am sorry for the comotion that I stirred up.

Peace to all,

c

 

[SPC]

Nala, I have spent some time this morning going over some of naesco's past posts but with over 300 posts I could not read each one. Would you mind posting the thread you mentioned above so I could read it?
Thanks,
Steve

 

[myreef]

I did not read the Tang thread. I saw how quickly it grew and grew with posts and determined flaming must be going on. I saw several times on this thread, we have over 5000 members...how many are truly active? I would like to see how many of those 5000 have posted in the last week or month. I see the same people posting. This is not to say, they should stop...but it seems like a smaller community than 5000 to me. I have flamed and been flamed. It does no one any good. It hurts feelings and makes people leary of posting answers or more importantly it stops some people from asking questions that could determine the life or death of a fish or coral. That is truly a shame. Remember to practice civility and remember the Golden Rule....Treat others as you wish to be treated. Thanks for your time....

 

[nala]

http://www.reefs.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=024135