Going on about 2 months now I seem to be having a losing battle with my Ph and Alk. My calcium is fine and always seems to stay pretty steady but my alk and ph are constantly falling to dangerous levels. I have always added Seachem products: reef buffer,reef advantage and reef calcium and never had a problem with my tank. I am still adding all those chemicals but at a rediculas rate now just to keep my alk and ph in the safe range. I have tried other buffer and alk products but they don't even touch my alk or ph. I have been running this tank for about 4 years and it still seems to be doing great. Anyone have any idea what could be happening to all the alk and ph buffers I am putting in there? And why am I not seing any fluctuation in my Calcium level? I have had friends test my water also and they get the same readings so It's not a test kit problem. I am not adding any additional products to my tank at this time nor did I ever so it can't be a chemical reation with any other additives. HELP
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Calling Chemical Experts... Please Help
- Thread starter 95galReef
- Start date
this might be a shot in the dark, but does the salt you use contain Magnesium?
I started adding Mag. for the reason that my CAl & Alk was every wear, it has settled down ever since.
This is on the lable:
"Considerations for use:
If you have trouble maintaining calcium or buffer level, check to see that the salt mix you are using has seawater level of magnesium. To save money and increase dissolvability, some manufacturers of popular newer salts have included only half the level of magnesium necessary in their sea salt mixes, resulting in low calcium solubility and poor buffering!"
http://www.rainbowpet.com/kent/kent30.htm
I started adding Mag. for the reason that my CAl & Alk was every wear, it has settled down ever since.
This is on the lable:
"Considerations for use:
If you have trouble maintaining calcium or buffer level, check to see that the salt mix you are using has seawater level of magnesium. To save money and increase dissolvability, some manufacturers of popular newer salts have included only half the level of magnesium necessary in their sea salt mixes, resulting in low calcium solubility and poor buffering!"
http://www.rainbowpet.com/kent/kent30.htm
What levels are they falling to? Also, what test kit(s) have you used?
You can try to isolate whether the problem is in your tank or from your mixed up water by mixing up some saltwater, let sit for a day or two with a powerhead in it (just as you would for a water change) then test the ph and alk.......next add your buffers and test again after the buffers have had time to fully dissolve (I would wait few hours).
The results should tell you (1)whether your freshly mixed saltwater mixes to appropriate/acceptable ph and alk levels and (2)what effect the buffers have in raising ph and alk. If the results appear normal then focus on your tank(perhaps a few large water changes 25-30%)over the course of a couple weeks to bring the chemical composition closer to NSW levels. HTH.
You can try to isolate whether the problem is in your tank or from your mixed up water by mixing up some saltwater, let sit for a day or two with a powerhead in it (just as you would for a water change) then test the ph and alk.......next add your buffers and test again after the buffers have had time to fully dissolve (I would wait few hours).
The results should tell you (1)whether your freshly mixed saltwater mixes to appropriate/acceptable ph and alk levels and (2)what effect the buffers have in raising ph and alk. If the results appear normal then focus on your tank(perhaps a few large water changes 25-30%)over the course of a couple weeks to bring the chemical composition closer to NSW levels. HTH.
95GalReef -- I think DEADFISH may be on to the source of your problem. In the absense of any other leads, I suspect your tank may be badly deficient in free Magnesium ions.
You ask where your Calcium and Alk are going? Well, in the absense of Magnesium, they are going to the bottom of your tank as solid Calcium Carbonate. And without Magnesium, no amount of Calcium and Alk building products will change that.
If you don't already have one, get a Salifert Magnesium test kit. Follow the directions, and you should be able to drip almost the entire syringe full of the final reagent into your water sample before the color changes to blue. If it changes sooner than that, you need to add Magnesium. Use something like Seachem reef Advantage Magnesium or Kent Tech-M to boost Magnesium to 1500 ppm. There are probalby lots of other suitable Magnesium raising reef products out there, too.
Once your Calcium and Magnesium are in balance with each other and with your Alkalinity, pH will stabilize around 8.0-8.3 with no other action on your part. The pH problem you see is just a symptom of not enough reserve buffer capacity for pH stability against the organic acid production load in your tank, imposed by your livestock.
Some Background: Natural seawater has more than 400 ppm of Calcium, as much 425 ppm or even 450. But this is only possible because seawater also has over 1500 ppm of Magnesium.
Reef keepers often forget that Magnesium is the key to Calcium solubility in water with high alkalinity -- 2.86 meq/L alkalinity (dKH 8.0) and above, like in our tanks.
One definition of alkalinity is the buffering capacity of the system against acid. Most of the buffering capacity in natural seawater is from HCO3- and CO3--. The concentration of CO3-- in the water directly influences the saturation state of the water with respect to Calcium ions -- and Magnesium ions, too.
I try to run at 3.6 meq/L (10 dKH), so to keep my calcium above 400 ppm I have to keep my Magnesium above 1500 ppm.
You might ask, how does Magnesium make Calcium Carbonate more soluble in water? Well, Calcium and Magnesium are the most prevalent metal ions in seawater, and both form carbonates by bonding with free CO3--. This is called the "common ion effect:"
Ca++ + CO3-- <==> CaCO3
competes with
Mg++ + CO3-- <==> MgCO3
Since the Mg++ and the Ca++ both compete for the attentions of CO3--, Magnesium ions can help keep Calcium ions in solution.
The "solubility product" (denoted Ksp by chemists) of Magnesium Carbonate (normalized to 25 degrees C)is 6.82 x 10-6, higher than that of Calcium Carbonate, CaCO3 at 4.96 x 10-9. So, we need lots of Magnesium around if it is to out-compete Calcium for free carbonates.
Without free Magnesium ions, your Calcium will tend to precipitate out as solid Calcium Carbonate, CaCO3. The more you try to raise your Alk, the more Calcium you will use making useless Calcium Carbonate (ie, sand). Then in frustration you dump in more Calcium, then more Alk builder, then more calcium -- sound like what's happening in your tank?
[ July 26, 2001: Message edited by: BReefCase ]
You ask where your Calcium and Alk are going? Well, in the absense of Magnesium, they are going to the bottom of your tank as solid Calcium Carbonate. And without Magnesium, no amount of Calcium and Alk building products will change that.
If you don't already have one, get a Salifert Magnesium test kit. Follow the directions, and you should be able to drip almost the entire syringe full of the final reagent into your water sample before the color changes to blue. If it changes sooner than that, you need to add Magnesium. Use something like Seachem reef Advantage Magnesium or Kent Tech-M to boost Magnesium to 1500 ppm. There are probalby lots of other suitable Magnesium raising reef products out there, too.
Once your Calcium and Magnesium are in balance with each other and with your Alkalinity, pH will stabilize around 8.0-8.3 with no other action on your part. The pH problem you see is just a symptom of not enough reserve buffer capacity for pH stability against the organic acid production load in your tank, imposed by your livestock.
Some Background: Natural seawater has more than 400 ppm of Calcium, as much 425 ppm or even 450. But this is only possible because seawater also has over 1500 ppm of Magnesium.
Reef keepers often forget that Magnesium is the key to Calcium solubility in water with high alkalinity -- 2.86 meq/L alkalinity (dKH 8.0) and above, like in our tanks.
One definition of alkalinity is the buffering capacity of the system against acid. Most of the buffering capacity in natural seawater is from HCO3- and CO3--. The concentration of CO3-- in the water directly influences the saturation state of the water with respect to Calcium ions -- and Magnesium ions, too.
I try to run at 3.6 meq/L (10 dKH), so to keep my calcium above 400 ppm I have to keep my Magnesium above 1500 ppm.
You might ask, how does Magnesium make Calcium Carbonate more soluble in water? Well, Calcium and Magnesium are the most prevalent metal ions in seawater, and both form carbonates by bonding with free CO3--. This is called the "common ion effect:"
Ca++ + CO3-- <==> CaCO3
competes with
Mg++ + CO3-- <==> MgCO3
Since the Mg++ and the Ca++ both compete for the attentions of CO3--, Magnesium ions can help keep Calcium ions in solution.
The "solubility product" (denoted Ksp by chemists) of Magnesium Carbonate (normalized to 25 degrees C)is 6.82 x 10-6, higher than that of Calcium Carbonate, CaCO3 at 4.96 x 10-9. So, we need lots of Magnesium around if it is to out-compete Calcium for free carbonates.
Without free Magnesium ions, your Calcium will tend to precipitate out as solid Calcium Carbonate, CaCO3. The more you try to raise your Alk, the more Calcium you will use making useless Calcium Carbonate (ie, sand). Then in frustration you dump in more Calcium, then more Alk builder, then more calcium -- sound like what's happening in your tank?
[ July 26, 2001: Message edited by: BReefCase ]
Unbelievable! That sounds exacly like was is happening in my tank. I have also found out the salt I have been using for about 3 months (Tropic Marin) has a lower Magnesium level than the prior salt. Although, I would have never suspected the magnesium level because both the reef builder and reef buffer both contain magnesium. Well, anyway the test kit and the Advantage magnesium are both on their way...Funny that when your tank runs perfect for 4 years you would think you were a pro. Yet,when something does go wrong you can't figure is out because you forget everything.
Thanks so much for you help guys.
Thanks so much for you help guys.
Not the case here. Tested every thing possible multiple times with multiple test kits, Magnesium was 1350 the whole time. After doing a water change and NOT adding the Coral Vital seemed to work though. I had changed the water in my tank 3 times over in two months, The only thing done different was not adding the coral vital, as i had done after the other water changes(thinking it would benifit my corals at this tuff time). No doubt in my mind about what I did or "didn't do" to fix it.
randy holmes-farley
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- Arlington, MA
I have a somewhat different set of explanations of the effect of magnesium on CaCO3 solubility:
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/library/articleview2.asp?Section=&RecordNo=2856
The answer here could be magnesium, but I don't think it very likely. Magnesium has to be quite low before it's a big issue. Without knowing the Ca++, pH, alk, and Mg++ values in this case, it's hard to say whether there is even a real problem.
[ August 24, 2001: Message edited by: Randy Holmes-Farley ]
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/library/articleview2.asp?Section=&RecordNo=2856
The answer here could be magnesium, but I don't think it very likely. Magnesium has to be quite low before it's a big issue. Without knowing the Ca++, pH, alk, and Mg++ values in this case, it's hard to say whether there is even a real problem.
[ August 24, 2001: Message edited by: Randy Holmes-Farley ]
I'm somewhat new to the hobby, 4-5 years, and always willing to hear what others say. I have seen many products on the market but was amazed when I read the miraculous properties of the Marc Weis products. While in a lcoal fish store the other day he attemted to sell me something called "Black Powder" , and told me if I use it I would never have to use anything else. Is this what you used?
I believe 95Galreef is saying that he now believes, based on his personal observations, that it was the continued USE of Coral Vital that was causing the ion balance problems with his tank, and that the problem seemed to abate when he stopped using it. (I'm sure 95Galreef will correct me if I'm wrong or putting words in his mouth.)
These products (CORAL VITAL, REEF VITAL FORMULA DNA, SPECTRA VITAL, BLACKPOWDER,
BACTER VITAL) from
http://www.marcweissco.com
are frequently debated on boards like this one because it is my personal understanding that they are claimed by the maker to be unique reef products beyond the generic trace element replacements available from most all reef suppliers. Since they are proprietary products for which unique benefit claims are made, the maker doesn't say precisely what is in them.
If this is indeed the case, it would be difficult to say exactly what was happening to 95GalReef's tank, since we have no way to know how this product works, and have only the advertising claims of the maker to go on.
95GalReef -- Is that the Marc Weiss product you were using? If so, what was your dosage schedule?
[ August 26, 2001: Message edited by: BReefCase ]
These products (CORAL VITAL, REEF VITAL FORMULA DNA, SPECTRA VITAL, BLACKPOWDER,
BACTER VITAL) from
http://www.marcweissco.com
are frequently debated on boards like this one because it is my personal understanding that they are claimed by the maker to be unique reef products beyond the generic trace element replacements available from most all reef suppliers. Since they are proprietary products for which unique benefit claims are made, the maker doesn't say precisely what is in them.
If this is indeed the case, it would be difficult to say exactly what was happening to 95GalReef's tank, since we have no way to know how this product works, and have only the advertising claims of the maker to go on.
95GalReef -- Is that the Marc Weiss product you were using? If so, what was your dosage schedule?
[ August 26, 2001: Message edited by: BReefCase ]
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