Help me to understand why taking a fish from NSW level salinity and then introducing it into an unnaturally low salinity (not to mention small) tank would reduce stress? IMO if you quarantine without medicating then all you are doing is observing to see if it has ich, which may or may not show at the time you quarentine the fish.
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Does everyone quarantine everything?
- Thread starter kcinminni
- Start date
Help me to understand why taking a fish from NSW level salinity and then introducing it into an unnaturally low salinity (not to mention small) tank would reduce stress? IMO if you quarantine without medicating then all you are doing is observing to see if it has ich, which may or may not show at the time you quarentine the fish.
Howdy,
From what I understand, the fish is using energy to maintain its' internal salinity level well below that of the surrounding saltwater. Now, lowering the salinity in the surrounding saltwater means the fish expends less energy fighting the natural osmoitic process and can fight any disease it is carrying.
Also, I have heard that some of the most common parasites are unable to breed or survive under lowered salinity conditions.
As I mentioned before, there was stress on the fish when I introduced them into the main tank, several died. I realized my mistake, that of not taking several hours to acclimate the fish to the higher salinity in the main tank, and corrected it. I now place the fish in a 5 gallon tank which contains 2 gallons of the Q-tank water. I then slowly drip in 3 gallons of the main tank water. This slow acclimation has corrected my previous mistake and resulted in healthy fish and no deaths from fish based pathogens.
I will say that I have a tank crash while using this method. The mistake I made was purchasing an orange fan sponge of dubious health. I was smitten with it and decided that I had to have it. DOH! 8O Yet another aquariast sucuums to the dreaded impulse buy. Not only was the sponge not healthy from the start, but I knew absolutely nothing about the care of such an animal. I put him into my 55 gallon tank where it proceeded to filter the water until there was nothgin left for it to eat. Not knowing that I should supplementally feed it, I let it starve to death.
The whole tank crashed, and the only survivor was a tough maroon clownfish. A hard lesson to learn no doubt, and definitely hard breaking.
Scott.
From what I understand, the fish is using energy to maintain its' internal salinity level well below that of the surrounding saltwater. Now, lowering the salinity in the surrounding saltwater means the fish expends less energy fighting the natural osmoitic process and can fight any disease it is carrying.
Also, I have heard that some of the most common parasites are unable to breed or survive under lowered salinity conditions.
As I mentioned before, there was stress on the fish when I introduced them into the main tank, several died. I realized my mistake, that of not taking several hours to acclimate the fish to the higher salinity in the main tank, and corrected it. I now place the fish in a 5 gallon tank which contains 2 gallons of the Q-tank water. I then slowly drip in 3 gallons of the main tank water. This slow acclimation has corrected my previous mistake and resulted in healthy fish and no deaths from fish based pathogens.
I will say that I have a tank crash while using this method. The mistake I made was purchasing an orange fan sponge of dubious health. I was smitten with it and decided that I had to have it. DOH! 8O Yet another aquariast sucuums to the dreaded impulse buy. Not only was the sponge not healthy from the start, but I knew absolutely nothing about the care of such an animal. I put him into my 55 gallon tank where it proceeded to filter the water until there was nothgin left for it to eat. Not knowing that I should supplementally feed it, I let it starve to death.
The whole tank crashed, and the only survivor was a tough maroon clownfish. A hard lesson to learn no doubt, and definitely hard breaking.
Scott.
I agree with Ernie in that if you're going to quarantine a fish, it should be in a medicated tank. Otherwise, you're just hoping that if ich (or whatever) is going to hit, it will do it while the fish in in the Q tank. The likelihood of stress causing disease when you transfer it again to the main tank is just as high if you don't medicate it--you've just delayed the onset. That's just my gut feeling.
Reducing the gradient between the internal fluids of the fish and the surrounding ambient water to alleviate the effects of the stress of capture, transport and handling is a common practice among fisheries. This is accomplished by reducing the salinity of SW or adding a little salt to FW. Hydromineral distubance is an inherent part of stress in fish. Reducing the gradient makes osmoregulation less costly energy-wise and helps the fish to recover normal homeostasis quicker.
I have heard every excuse over the years for not quarantining. IMO it just comes down to laziness. Quarantine is the responsible thing to do. BTW, I know a great deal about stress in fish and the biological, physiological and behavioral consequences and quarantine in a tank with an established biological filter is far LESS stressful on the fish than skipping quarantine. I lean toward quaranting all new bony reef fish in hyposalinity.
Terry B
I have heard every excuse over the years for not quarantining. IMO it just comes down to laziness. Quarantine is the responsible thing to do. BTW, I know a great deal about stress in fish and the biological, physiological and behavioral consequences and quarantine in a tank with an established biological filter is far LESS stressful on the fish than skipping quarantine. I lean toward quaranting all new bony reef fish in hyposalinity.
Terry B
Hey esmithIII,
You state: " I also question what it buys you over a simple fresh-water dip. "
For one thing, it eliminates the introduction of cryptocaryon tomonts (Ich) into the display tank. What is the point of quarantining all fish to eliminate Ich and then placing a piece of coral or live rock straight into the tank from a possibly infected system.
Unless your local fish store keeps no fish in the invert section, the possibilty is high for Ich tomonts to be in their invert system
To do it right you need to treat all new fish in a q-tank to eliminate parasites, and quaratine all new live rock/inverts/corals in a seperate reef system containing no fish for at least 30 days.
This is a very big hassle and requires a great deal of patience. But if I can do it, anyone can.
It all comes down to ones adversity to risk. Mine is very high. I have lost too many fish due to parasites in my 12 years of reefkeeping to take the chance of introducing disease into my new 1000 gallon tank.
Everyone must make their own risk assesement and act accordingly. IMHO most of the people who quarantine religiously have been keeping fish longer that the average aquarist. They have been stung by disease repeatedly and grown tired.
John
You state: " I also question what it buys you over a simple fresh-water dip. "
For one thing, it eliminates the introduction of cryptocaryon tomonts (Ich) into the display tank. What is the point of quarantining all fish to eliminate Ich and then placing a piece of coral or live rock straight into the tank from a possibly infected system.
Unless your local fish store keeps no fish in the invert section, the possibilty is high for Ich tomonts to be in their invert system
To do it right you need to treat all new fish in a q-tank to eliminate parasites, and quaratine all new live rock/inverts/corals in a seperate reef system containing no fish for at least 30 days.
This is a very big hassle and requires a great deal of patience. But if I can do it, anyone can.
It all comes down to ones adversity to risk. Mine is very high. I have lost too many fish due to parasites in my 12 years of reefkeeping to take the chance of introducing disease into my new 1000 gallon tank.
Everyone must make their own risk assesement and act accordingly. IMHO most of the people who quarantine religiously have been keeping fish longer that the average aquarist. They have been stung by disease repeatedly and grown tired.
John
I don't have a q tank and have been VERY lucky - . I know I should, and I will very soon. My husband is tolerating the space/time/money I have spent on the 72 gallon tank, and I have been very selective about what I put in it . a Q tank is my next project . . . But, I agree that fish should be q'd with hyposalinity.
Please provide a reference for this.I know a great deal about stress in fish and the biological, physiological and behavioral consequences and quarantine in a tank with an established biological filter is far LESS stressful on the fish than skipping quarantine.
The amount of pure ignorance surrounding this subject amazes me to no end. Those who favor no quarantine, and the "ich is always present in the system" BS seem to be in the same camp.
QUARANTINE. Period. Anything else is pure stupidity. Furthermore, many of you are operating under the assumption that a quarantine tank has to be a bare 10 gallon and will stress the fish. I use a fully setup 50 gallon with live sand. I don't use chemicals, but will lower the salinity if I need to - which is rare.
It's foolish to add a new fish into an established system with longterm, healthy fish. It's just not worth the risk, and it WILL bite you one of these days.
Anyone who thinks quarantine is more stressfull to a fish than adding it straight to a system with other fish and their established territories is ignorant, to put it nicely. If you quarantine, and do it religiously IT WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE TO GET ICH IN YOUR DISPLAY TANK. It's that simple.
Terry is right, you would do well to listen to him.
Regards
Jim :roll:
QUARANTINE. Period. Anything else is pure stupidity. Furthermore, many of you are operating under the assumption that a quarantine tank has to be a bare 10 gallon and will stress the fish. I use a fully setup 50 gallon with live sand. I don't use chemicals, but will lower the salinity if I need to - which is rare.
It's foolish to add a new fish into an established system with longterm, healthy fish. It's just not worth the risk, and it WILL bite you one of these days.
Anyone who thinks quarantine is more stressfull to a fish than adding it straight to a system with other fish and their established territories is ignorant, to put it nicely. If you quarantine, and do it religiously IT WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE TO GET ICH IN YOUR DISPLAY TANK. It's that simple.
Terry is right, you would do well to listen to him.
Regards
Jim :roll:
Who cares about ich. If you cannot deal with ich in this day and age, you shouldn't have fish in your tank at all. Just give up now. There are so many proven methods of dealing with it that I am constantly amazed how experienced aquarists fear it like the boogy man.IT WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE TO GET ICH IN YOUR DISPLAY TANK
I would be more likely to quarantine new coral additions than fish. Coral diseases are not particularly well known, but if you were able to isolate a diseased individual before adding it into your display tank, it would be a great benefit. Also, coral have a funny way of tracking in some unwanted hitchhikers such as flatworms and nudibrach parasites not to mention in some cases, juvinile mantis shrimp.
I say quarintine.
I have a fishless 135 gal and received a Pinktail and Imperator to put in.
Needless to say, I put them in the 135, ick resulted and they had flukes. I retrieved them put them in a 30 gal quarintine, treated with all kinds of things and finally resorted to reduced salinity of 1.009. This has done the most good for them. They are eating well and parasite free. I am counting till day 30 comes to start to raise the salinity again. Also leaving my 135 fishless for this time spand, hoping that it will be a clean system when my babes are ready to go back in.
Sandy
I have a fishless 135 gal and received a Pinktail and Imperator to put in.
Needless to say, I put them in the 135, ick resulted and they had flukes. I retrieved them put them in a 30 gal quarintine, treated with all kinds of things and finally resorted to reduced salinity of 1.009. This has done the most good for them. They are eating well and parasite free. I am counting till day 30 comes to start to raise the salinity again. Also leaving my 135 fishless for this time spand, hoping that it will be a clean system when my babes are ready to go back in.
Sandy
Who cares about ich. If you cannot deal with ich in this day and age, you shouldn't have fish in your tank at all. Just give up now. There are so many proven methods of dealing with it that I am constantly amazed how experienced aquarists fear it like the boogy man.
Proven methods in an established reef tank? RELAIBLE and CONSISTENT PROVEN methods? I beg to differ.
Quarantine and hyposalinity are the only proven, 100% reliable methods to keep ich out of your display tank. You can't copper your display, or your quarantine either for that matter if you're using live rock. Garlic is hit and miss at best, and even then it usually only works with light infections caught in the intitial stages. It doesn't work for everyone and certainly cannot be called "proven." "Reef safe" medications that are currently available are also hit and miss, and can cause problems of their own.
I've been doing this for upwards of 15 years, so if you know something I don't, spit it out - please.
Regards
Jim
JimM, I think I see your point of challenge...the "proven method" part. I am not really talking about an active "method" that you would do if you had ich. It is my contention that ich is a non-issue provided that you provide the following:
1. Clean water - the usual, generally accepted readings for salinity, nitrogenous compounds, temperature, etc.
2. Low stress environment - relatively low stocking levels(almost never the case in most show tanks, unfortunately), no beligerent tankmates, hiding places, etc.
3. Stable Chemistry - not currently engaged in some chemical fluctuation, nutrient export problem, etc.
I believe individuals that practice the sort of husbandry outlined above do not struggle with ich.
I do not believe in any miracles in bottles. I have every confidence in the fish's immune system to fight off ich. Quickly. If I was feeling particularly pro-active, I would add either a cleaner shrimp or a neon goby to provide some short term relief for the fish. Is ich totally irradicated? I can't really tell, but I will never see a white spot on a fish again. In the last 10 years, I have encountered ich only once, and that was due to a horribly overstocked newbie tank.
If I saw a fish at the store I *really* wanted, but had ich, I would not hesitate to put it into my tank. It will get better.
1. Clean water - the usual, generally accepted readings for salinity, nitrogenous compounds, temperature, etc.
2. Low stress environment - relatively low stocking levels(almost never the case in most show tanks, unfortunately), no beligerent tankmates, hiding places, etc.
3. Stable Chemistry - not currently engaged in some chemical fluctuation, nutrient export problem, etc.
I believe individuals that practice the sort of husbandry outlined above do not struggle with ich.
I do not believe in any miracles in bottles. I have every confidence in the fish's immune system to fight off ich. Quickly. If I was feeling particularly pro-active, I would add either a cleaner shrimp or a neon goby to provide some short term relief for the fish. Is ich totally irradicated? I can't really tell, but I will never see a white spot on a fish again. In the last 10 years, I have encountered ich only once, and that was due to a horribly overstocked newbie tank.
If I saw a fish at the store I *really* wanted, but had ich, I would not hesitate to put it into my tank. It will get better.
To me putting any new fish, diseased or not, without quarantine is not only irresponsible it is crazy. I would describe a fish's resistance to ich like a three legged stool. Break any one of the three leggs and the stool is probably going to fall over. The three legs of the stool that must be taken into consideration are: water quality including stress factors, the overall health of the fish and the presence and density level of the particular pathogen. In this case, ich can infect and overcome perfectly healthy fish kept in high water quality. All you need is the presence of the parasite in suffient numbers to overcome any one particular host in the tank. Once a suitable host is establsihed the population of parasites is going to multiply. This is why the least resistent fish shows spots first. As the parasite population increases it overwhelms the more resistent fish.
Terry B
Terry B
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