rshimek

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Hi Folks,

This will be a follow-up to my food and additive study
(http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/data/foods.asp).

The goal of this project is to gain an idea of what is in our tanks chemically. I will have samples of tank water analyzed by the same methodology used in the previous study so the data should be comparable. The samples will be analyzed for 31 trace materials, and for the dissolved nutrients analyzed in the first study. Additionally we will also measure ammonia and nitrates.

I will use the data obtained to construct a statistical “marine reef aquarium” and from the data hopefully get some sort of handle on nutrient flow and trace element levels in our systems. Depending on the number of participants, I may be able to subdivide and partition the data to provide information about other specific aspects (dependant on skimming, water changes, feeding regimes, etc.).

There will be a detailed questionnaire that will need to be filled out by each participant.

The procedure will be as follows.

I will need to get a firm commitment from all potential participants.

As soon as there are enough committed participants, I will let them know that the project is proceeding. At that time I will need the money to cover the sample processing costs.

When I have the total list of all people participating, and the funds necessary, I will contact the testing laboratory. They will send me the jars necessary for the participants to use. Each participant will have to fill at least 2 and maybe 3 jars per aquarium. If you have more than one tank you want tested, each aquarium will have to be a separate sample (and separate cost). Each jar will be filled with 500 ml (a bit more than a pint) of tank water (the jars will have chemicals in them to help stabilize the samples). The participants will mail the jars back to me along with the completed questionnaire. I will collect the samples and mail them on to the lab. They will process the samples and return the data to me.

From this each participant will get:

1) Data on the levels of the following materials in their systems: Aluminum, Antimony, Arsenic, Barium, Beryllium, Boron, Cadmium, Calcium, Chromium, Cobalt, Copper, Iodide, Iron, Lead, Lithium, Magnesium, Manganese, Mercury, Molybdenum, Nickel, Phosphorus, Potassium, Selenium, Silicon, Silver, Sodium, Strontium, Sulfur, Thallium, Tin, Titanium, Vanadium, Yttrium, Zinc plus Ammonia, Nitrate, Carbohydrates, Protein, Lipids.

As an aside, those of you who do chemical testing might consider this a way to see how good your test kits are...

2) A copy of the final report with my discussion of the contents. I hope to publish the results, probably in either FAMA or TFH. The results, along with other data and analyses will be reported on in MACNA XIV NEXT year in Dallas/Ft. Worth.

I estimate the total cost for each participant will be: $175 per sample; some time spent filling out the questionnaire, and collecting the samples, and the cost of mailing the samples to me.

The final costs will vary depending on the number of participants. I am not in this to make a profit, so any excess money will be divided by the number of participants and returned to each of the participants.

The usefulness of this study will depend on the number of participants. At a cost of $175+, it is possible not enough folks will want to pony up the cash to make it worthwhile. Consequently I need a firm commitment and the money on hand before I will begin.

I believe that 15 samples is the bare minimum; and the more, the merrier. If you are interested in participating or have questions, please contact me by email at: [email protected]

I will ask those who are interested to spread the word about this on other BB’s.

Thanks!

[ July 28, 2001: Message edited by: rshimek ]
 

rshimek

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Hi Cubera,

Many thanks - got about 12 - 13 interested folks, so we are building up the necessary numbers.

Remember to email me, so I can put you on the list.

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[ July 28, 2001: Message edited by: rshimek ]
 

2poor2reef

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Skylsdale, it's in the first sentence of the original post: "The goal of this project is to gain an idea of what is in our tanks chemically". It may be that over time our water chemistry gets farther and farther from nsw. Would be nice to know. Would also be nice to know if our home test kits are accurate.

[ July 29, 2001: Message edited by: 2poor2reef ]
 

SPC

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I think the point of this test is to help us move ahead as a hobbie in our pursuit to provide the correct living conditions for our marine life. Thanks Dr Ron for taking the time to care.
Steve
 

cubera

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Ditto, Steve. We really want to know how our H2O checks out. Our sample will come from a successful propagation system and this analysis could provide us with clues on how to keep it that way!
 

skylsdale

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So, what's the point? Sounds cool I guess, but what's the point of it all?

[ July 29, 2001: Message edited by: skylsdale ]
 
A

Anonymous

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It is the cost of getting the elemental analysis done at a commercial lab.

I think a similar thing has been done by Craig Bingman.

But you are right, it would be good to know what hypothesis is being tested. So assuming we collect the data, we will have a statistical distribution of concentrations of certain elements in people's fish tanks. But can we then conclude that we should be aiming to have all of our setups mirroring the average values for these? Rather, shouldn't we be aiming to replicate sea water as closely as possible? What would be more interesting to see is how the results might be correlated with the health or the sickness of an aquatic system.
 

rshimek

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by skylsdale:
<STRONG>If it's such a good thing, why do WE need to pay for HIS study?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read the initial post. Participants are not paying for the cost of anything other than the analyses of their own water. The cost of data work up, further synthetic analyses, and the report are all borne by me.

You are certainly welcome to do such analyses on your own.
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[ July 29, 2001: Message edited by: rshimek ]
 

2poor2reef

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Skylsdale, he's asking for volunteers. You don't need to participate. This isn't government funded research ya' know. This is just one way to move the hobby. He isn't being paid for his time to my knowledge. He's just asking for some test samples and for volunteers to pay for the lab fees. If you don't see the benefits under item 1 and 2 of the original post then don't worry about it.
 
A

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Dr Ron Shimek,

You have caught me in the middle of redecking my boat. I would like to hear when you have enough participants so Ivy and I can send you a non participant donation for expenses outside of lab fees, ie. jars and shipping. I have seen others on reef central expressed intrest in non participant donations and would like to help the research you do on our hobbies behalf.
Thank you for your studies to date and taking the time to share with us.
 

JohnD

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Dr. Ron,

I have only heard good things about you and your research. Please let me second Dave and Ivy's statements. I would be happy to donate a few dollars to help with your upcoming research project as a nonparticipant.

Please drop me an e-mail.

Warm regards,
JohnD
 

danmhippo

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Ron,
I too second Dave & Ivy's non-participation donation. I've just Private mailed my email address. Please P-mail back the confimation to get the balls rolling.

Jimmy
 

Bubafat

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I'm also wondering if it hasn't already been done (prolly has), could you possibly add a couple sample's of indo pacific water, or pull up the data, to compair them. I think this would also be very helpful to the hobby. Although some are not as enthusiastic about it, I believe that you have the support of most people on the boards. Like many others that replied, being a poor college student, I don't have 175 bucks to cough up so but I can make a smaller donation, maybe get a public reef aquarium water's tested.

Thanks again Ron.

Buba
 

skylsdale

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I know it's only if you want to volunteer--I understood that from the beginning. If you don't like my tone, then don't read my posts. I'm not going to rant and rave about this thing--it seems unnecessary to me and I'm asking for clarification. You could have X number of tanks with X number of results. Trying to come up with a statistical tank seems irrelevant to me. Why bother? Yes, our tanks run on certain guidelines, but each tank is different, playing by its own rules in a sense. It seems to me Dr. S that you are trying to come up with a stereotypical average tank--which seems like a waste of time and resources. Your combination of tanks and results may not even enter the same ballpark as my tank and what it takes to make it work. Your rules and chemical makeups could be so far off base from mine (and after looking at my tank, I wouldn't be surprised
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) that trying to fit mine into the box of your statistical tank just might not be the best for it.

No, I'm not saying this is the coolest thing since sliced bread, because at the moment I don't. Why don't I? Because I don't fully understand the reasons behind it. So I'm asking why. I'm researching and asking questions in search for the truth. Isn't that what these boards are all about?!

So, Dr. Schimek, if you wouldn't mind articulating a bit, I would like to know your motivation behind this and what made you want to seek after these results. Is it a means to an end, or just out of personal curiosity? Is it somehow going to change the way we look at our tanks' chemistry, or just a project to pass the time?
 

EmilyB

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jamesw, with all due respect, you don't like skysdales "tone" ??!!
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The minute there is some discussion with regards to the good doctors intentions, and some questions many have, is that to be "slapped" ?
 

Green Lantern

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If you are going to question someone at least spell their name right. You can't have researched that much if you can't see the motivation behind the tests. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.
 

Minh Nguyen

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bubafat:
<STRONG>.....you possibly add a couple sample's of indo pacific water, or pull up the data, to compair them. I think this would also be very helpful to the hobby....</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am sur that the water sample of various sites have beeing tested. We just need to reseach and pull them up
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by skylsdale:
<STRONG>OK...but just one sample at one random time doesn't seem like a very consistent measurement to me. It's one snap out of a timeline of a tank setup. And let's say we get the results...you get your name in lights and recognition of a job well done, I get a piece of paper back showing all these really neat percentages of chemicals...then what happens? Big synthetic salt companies try to increase all their major and minor elements to make it the "closest thing to actual seawater you can buy"? They then make it close, but not quite--ending in the conclusion we had in the first place: our tanks are poor comparisons to the quality of life these organisms experienced on the reef.

Granted, it's research like this that has helped us to understand our tanks more and provide a better quality environment for inhabitants. But are these small details going to really rocket this hobby that much farther?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Did you READ the initial post at all????
All your answers can be found in the first two or three pargraphs. You certainly don't have to donate and send any water from you tank in. I think the problem is not going to be in the salt mix because with today salt mex, most of us can keep coral and fish doing well for a few months. It is really what we add into our tank, in term of food and additives, that is the problem.
As James pointed out, there have being one study of the chemical composition of ONE tank over times done.
You must think we know all there is to know about keeping salt water aquarium if you think that further understanding on the composition of our tank's water is not need. If one only do studies that would 'rocket this hobby' to the next level, then nothing will get done. If you want to have a longitutional study of a large number of tanks over time, then by all mean come if with the money to do it and I am sure Ron or some other people, or even you can do it.
 

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