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davelin315

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Where are all the nitrates? I have not had nitrates in the detectable range in over 2 years. I don't have LR per se, I have my own dead rock which has been culturing in my systems for around 10 years. Also, I have a very large bioload (fish=2 yellow tangs, 4 pacific blue tangs, 4 yellow tail damsels, 1 domino damsel, 1 green chromis, 1 3 stripe damsel, 1 flame angel, 1 coral beauty, 1 jaw fish, 1 firefish, 1 cinammon clown, 1 royal gramma, can't remember what else that swims, 4 fire shrimp, 2 cleaner shrimp, 1 coral banded shrimp, numerous crabs, soft corals, sps, numerous snails, lps, clams, tons of xenia!. I have only about a 1-2" gravel bed of crushed coral and aragonite. Where're the nitrates going?
 

esmithiii

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Man, its gonna get hot in here soon!
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Maybe you have really good water? Maybe you need a new test kit? Maybe the age of the tank? Maybe you live in a region with strange magnetic fields?

How big is the tank? How do your tangs get along?

E
 

2poor2reef

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Guess one: your nitrate test kit is two years old also. It sat on the shelf before that and the reagents are no good.

Guess two: you don't overfeed and your clams suck up some nitrate. Perhaps you also do some macroalgae export.

Guess three: you're just one awesome reefer.

Guess four: it's a miracle. Perhaps there's a product opportunity.

[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: 2poor2reef ]
 

dmm32

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The Xenia is probably where the nitrates are going, I have a buddy that has the same setup like you say you have he cleaned out the exenia to move to another tank to trade and the nitrate kept going up, the tank has been up for seven years, well as the xenia grew back the nitrate level went back to zero.

David
 

monkeyboy

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My vote is for the xenia and the strong magnetic fields. Never underestimate the power of xenia, i'm suprised that people have yet to start making xenia filters.

Clams also suck up the nitrate, maybe you have some big derasas?
 

cubera

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Way to go Dave! Your system is proof that there are many different ways to have success! I like it!
 

Ocyurus

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Personally I am gonna go with a miraculous new liquid that looks identical to water but absorbs all nitrates I think that you should bottle it! Either that or you are a very lucky reefer. Or it could be the Xenia.
 

BReefCase

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It's not a miracle. It's the way EVERYBODY "did saltwater" when I started reefing, way back in the Dark Ages.

That is to say, heavily bioloaded tanks with bare minimum biofiltering -- biofiltering that arose mostly by accident rather than by conscious plan by the reefer.

The mark of boastful ignorant success in those days was to see how small a tank in which one could keep a Tang alive long term. It worked well enough for many by blind luck that it impeded any impulse to learn better techniques for many, many years. If you advocated a more biologically sound approach there was always someone who would laugh or scoff and say they could do just as well with a Yellow Tang in a fishbowl. And some did -- for a while, anyway.

You still see echoes of this mentality today in the typical flame wars that erupt on this board with nausiating regularity when someone posts about the school of Tangs they have kept alive for six whole months in a 37 gallon mini.

We didn't know any better then. We should know better now.

The problem with such setups is not that they CAN'T work -- many tanks worked this way for years with no visible problems. It's just that they are so precariously balanced that the instant anything goes wrong -- say an unnoticed fish death or a Xenia crash -- there is not enough safety margin to prevent a cascade collapse of everything in the tank.

One or two inches of sand MAY be enough depth that some denitrification is going on, if it is very fine-grained and left uindisturbed. Four to six inches would be a lot better.

By the way, after ten years "dead" rock is really live rock. It's not heavy coraline coverage or diverse showy macroscopic life that makes good live rock biofilters -- it's the surface area for invisible, transparent bacteria. You can easily start new tanks with "dead" terrestrial rock that is "seeded" with bacteria for a few weeks by submerging it in an established tank.

It's every bit as much "live rock" at this point as what reefers willingly pay a small fortune per pound for by mail order.
 

davelin315

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It's a 125, by the way.

Breefcase, I know that the rock is considered to be live rock today, I just wanted to differentiate from store bought live rock to what I have (I have not bought more than 20 lbs of live rock for my reef tank in my life, and 20 is probably an exaggeration, although I have over 100 lbs in my pond which is not connected yet, over 250 if you include the old "dead rock").

Calling the substrate 2" was probably an exaggeration. It is more realistically less than 1.5" in most places, and is not made up of very fine particles, it is made up of large crushed coral and aragonite gravel.

Also, this is not a tank where if something dies and goes undetected the whole system gets thrown out of whack. Believe me, I've had fish that didn't make it before, and I never remove anything from my reef. If it dies, it gets eaten as food by all the critters. As I'm not a big advocate of feeding my fish, believing that they are better off with minimal feedings and "living off the land" creating a more or less self sufficient ecosystem, the only fish that I've lost in the past year or so have either been because of stupidity on my part or a couple of strict herbivores that plain and simple, ran out of stuff to eat and didn't adjust to eating flake (I'm not a big nori feeder either, even though I have some).

The test kit is very old as well, however, it works on my basement pond (which by the way has a DSB, a macroalgae refugium, and the aforementioned load of LR, and only has a couple of fish in it and is over 400 gallons total, with a full capacity of over 500, where the nitrates are sky high, maybe due to an immature DSB) and I've done numerous tests on it with the old reagents (I'm not convinced that they "go bad"). I've also had tests done in the stores with the brand new test kits as I also have had my doubts about how good the old test kits are, but the results always match.

I have 5 clams in the system, but none are larger than around 4", being the 2 largest maximas or croceas, 2 around 3", and one baby that is around 2" (all are croceas or maximas, I can't tell which, and everytime I think I can, I think maybe they're the other).

There is no macroalgae exportation in this tank, in fact, I've fed macroalgae on about 3 occasions in the past 6 months, and I don't think the night that it lasted is enough to export nutrients, especially because it got eaten and reintroduced.

By the way, no magical magnetic fields, no crazy auras of greatness emanating from me (at least according to my friends and family, although if you asked me....
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), just that magic water from the Home Depot Honeywell RO filter.

I'm really just wondering what is eating it, and the xenia seem to be the main suggestion here. This tank has been on again off again set up for a number of years. I wouldn't call it a long time established tank in my new home, but the tank itself and all of the substrate and rock are very old, as is the filter itself which is really what I would call a calcerous tube worm filter (you can't see through the back of my sump as the worms have completely covered it with layer upon layer of worm tubes). In the past, I've never had any instability problems and have been very successful with most of the stuff I was keeping, with the exception of some corals and fish that I have brought up before, and that seem to be a common problem on this board, but I did always have nitrates that would sometimes get a bit high necessitating a water change here or there. Now, since I have stopped doing water changes, it seems the nitrates are going away on their own, with none of the classic removal systems in place.

Is it in fact the xenia as dmm and monkeyboy and derek suggest? If it is, why don't we do xenia filters (I know the idea has been put forth before, but why is it not a more popular concept if xenia are so good at nutrient use - not export, because I haven't tossed the xenia in the basement in a long time, they are just gathering in the open spaces of my reef)? I know that clam filters are used, but that can be very cost ineffective, and who wants to put their beautiful maximas into their sump? Are xenia the answer? Should I ditch the whole macroalgae thing going on in my pond refugium and go with xenia instead?

By the way, for those of you who want, I will begin bottling samples of my tank water combined with a lock of my hair available for no, not $100, not $95, not even $90! Just 4 easy payments of $22.49! Sign up quick, before the tank water and my hair is all reserved!
 

Mouse

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I would bank on the Xenia being responsible for the denitrification. GARF have just started to try a Xenia refugeum, sounds like a good idea. Except for the fact that allthough the water will be left clean im wondering that the Xenia may leave it too clean, not allowing for many other filter feeding invertebrates to co-exist in the system.
 

davelin315

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I have a good mix of filter feeders in my system and the xenia don't seem to have any affect on how they do. I don't add much in the way of food for my tank including the corals, and haven't seen any problems yet (although my laziness with dosing kalk is getting to be a problem, time to buy/make that ca reactor!) due to lack of feeding.
 
A

Anonymous

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Yes you do have live rock "per se", it became that in your system. Mystery solved.
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Jim
 

AWD

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I don't know much about the xenias, but it is apparent that if I want some I will need to thin out my Caulerpa. Is this true? My nitrate level isn't high enough to show on my tests either.
 

Mabu

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How much Xenia would actually make this much difference? I have a 55g that has now started to have a slight nitrate spike (~ 10ppm) for the last 3-4 weeks. I attributed this to a pearly jawfish which dug too deep in the substrate and caused a failure of my anerobic bacteria in the plenum. I removed the jawfish and added more sand. I'm hoping things can settle down.

I have had an explosion of Xenia growth in the tank though... and it does appear that a slight nitrate level may spur growth. Up until recently, I had absolutely 0 nitrates for the last six months.

I would speculate the nitrate reduction is a combination of a number of things: the live rock, xenia, clams and any algae in the tank. The tank is so well established (and not overfed) that it has balanced itself nicely - I think that's something we all aspire towards. Congrats!
 

Mabu

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Btw, this brings up an interesting question: Is it advisable to allow a certain level of nitrate to be maintained in the system in order to spur growth of denitrifying organisms? If so, what level for how long?
 

davelin315

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Wouldn't that raise the question of if you have denitrifying organisms, how do you maintain a level of nitrate? Would you add fertilizer to your tank periodically to prevent a crash of those organisms, like caulerpa is apt to do, or xenia (is that why they crash?) is known to do?
 

Mouse

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Dave, youve actually come across something i've been wondering for a while. Why do people feel that for example the Miracle Mud filters utilise the Bio Balls in the first chamber as nitrate factorys. Firstly i dont see the need when Nitrates would be produced by the rocks denitrifying waste from the fish, And if there was no DSB of Plenum then the Anerobic capabilitys of the rocks would be inadequate at denitrifying the entire load all the way to Nitrogen and therefore still supply the water column with a source of Nitrates to feed the macro algal refugeium. We all know that Calerpa is liable to crash but couldn't that be the responsibility of miss management in other areas I.E. Iron supplimentation. Or am i missing the point in that the idea is to create a stable bioload engineered into the system so that the bioload caused by denitrification of fish waste is minor in comparisom and therefore creating a much stabler and larger denitrifying bactereal colony than would be neccessary to deal with the waste of the fish alone. It just seems to go completely against the theory behind adding denitrification towers.
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[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Mouse ]</p>
 

Mouse

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P.S. when you say you used Dead Rock was this Ocean rock or Tufa? I want to start a system from scratch to avoid any potential nastys (like a £1000 bill for the rocks). And it would also enable me to do some amazing reefscapeing using Tufa drilled with supports. My intention would be to start with a FO and then increase the bioload slowly over a two year pereod or so and then start to adapt it to a reef using MH bulbs CA reactors and all the rest of the gear. I have thought of making arragocrete rocks but the curing process looks like a pain in the ass, not to mention the mess. So ultimately its either Tufa or Ocean Rock, it seems silly to buy rocks these days when you have products about like GARF Grunge and all of the micro critters that IPF stock. And this way you get to choose everything providing quarintene is adequate.
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Josh's Reef

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Dude, good for you it's great to have such success but I think your rock after 10 years is alive.
Dont know much about xenia sucking up nitrates but they are fast growing and they need to eat too.
p.s. I hope you didnt just jinx yourself.
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