angel pairs?

[afss]

has any one got any experience or knowledge on angel pairs?
I currently have a coral beauty that is about 3 inches long. There is a small one at the store that is 1-1.5 inches long. I have read that you can put pairs of the same species in the same tank if they are of opposite sex, and I have heard that angels can change their sex, but only once.
What I need to know is what sex are angels born as?
what causes them to change their sex, aside from being around another angel of the same species?
does size matter in this situation, the same as it would for clowns?
Thanks
Scott
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[davelin315]

Sorry, don't know a thing about angel pairs, in fact, don't even know how to sex an angel (except for the swallowtail angel, it's kind of easy with them). I've seen pairs in the wild, and also pairs in captivity, but never saw anything about them that would suggest one is the male and one is the female, except that one was usually a tiny bit bigger than the other, not as noticeable as the size difference in clownfish, though.

The only ones that I have seen pairs of in captivity (except for the swallowtails) are lemonpeels. Really neat pair of fish to have, but not as reef safe as I'd like. I've heard of people selling flame angel pairs, but have never seen them. Good luck.

 

[EmilyB]

Actually, I can't say for sure if this translates to all other species of centrophyge angels, but the lemon peels I have some experience with, and was told the male has a harem. I originally started with four, all different sizes (was advised to do odd number, but small order screwup). For almost one year, all functioned very well, with dominant male spawning with females nightly. Then, obviously number four tried for dominance, and I am amazed I could save this fish. He has been living, and recovering, obviously elsewhere.

Three is magic for these guys.

 

[afss]

thanks for the info.
Is your male the larger of the group?
thanks
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[afss]

any one else?
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[Cruiser]

Afss

Centropyge angeles are predominantly "Protogynous hermaphrodites" ~ females (born) change into males. The males are generally larger then females (males grew from females). Some coloration differences btw gender; but,is generally only present during spawing. Some reports of the preopercular spine being longer in males.

Breeding behavior changes for each species and numerous differences between genus. Some centropyge spawn in pairs; but, will also spawn in groups depending upon social structure of the reef.

smaller aquariums completely change the dynamics in breeding marine fish. Martin Moe, Jr. did some research in breeding the Flame Angel with good success........I think there was a publication a few years back from him regarding angels.

His book on breedng "Orchid Dottyback / pseudochromis" has good information regarding necessary care & facilities to handle breeding, aggression, environmental stress, inhabitant stress, rearing / grow out.......

A harem set-up with one large male and as many females as possible will greatly increase pairing / breeding behavior for Coral Beauty's.
Aggression problems will happen pre-spawn activity & when subdominant male wants to sneak in on the action.

 

[Len]

Centropyges are sexually dimorphic and dichromatic, but it's a subtle difference. In fact, like Dave said, the only Pomancanthid that is blantantly dimorphic/dichromatic are Genicanthus sp. You can't safely sex the rest of them. Males are a little bigger and slightly more colorful.

Centropyges do form harems. They're all born females, with the dominant specimen morphing into a male (much like Anthia or Cirrhilabrus harems).

HOWEVER, I would strongly advise against two Centropyges in one tank. One will invariably slaughter the other, even if they're different sexes. Their behavior becomes increasingly aggressive and terrotorial in captivity, against all conspecifics (any sex) and congenors.

 

[Cruiser]

EmilyB

Does your Male lemon peel have the extended preopercular spine?

Does the Male have any "darkened" areas in the head / shoulder region?

True for other Centropyge species, does your Male have longer dorsal / anal fin?

Thanks

 

[afss]

emilyb

how long have you had the angels in a group?

thanks

Scott
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[Tanu]

I've kept my flame angel for about 3 or 4 years now. Sunday I released the new (smaller!) second flame in the same tank. It has been in a small plexiglass tank for about 4 days. So far, no fighting occured.

In Germany more people are giving single fish a partner. With many fish like gobies, this could be done quite easy. When doing this with tangs or angels, more caution should be taken. It seems to work best when the new partner is significantly SMALLER. Thus avoiding the battle between 'higher range' and 'lower range'. The already established fish keeps its higher range. Even when doing it this way, other cautions should be taken. The new fish should eat, and should be totally acclimated to the new environment. Also, the new and the old one, need to be accustomed to each other. This is done by the use of a 'swimming school': a floating container in which the new inhabitant is kept for at least 4-7 days, before releasing. Of course, hiding places, some algae and some corals need to be present in this little container, next to enough circulation and oxygen.

Mostly the old fish will attack the container the first few days, later the number of attacks will decrease. A few days later, the new one is ready to be released.

Of course, even with these precautions, there's always the risk of a battle between the two fish! But, mostly, it works! I've seen people doing this with most pygmy angels, as well as with tangs, even with the agressive Z. xanthurum, the blue tang from the Red Sea...

Good luck!

Tanu
www.tanu.nl

 

[sedgro]

I keep two Golden Angels (C. aurantia) in my 150 gal reef. Never had a problem with any aggression between them. Can't recommend them as reef safe though. Probably the least reef safe pygmy angel around. The only time I see the two of them is when they are out sampling my SPS corals. At least they don't prefer any particular one - they never seem to do any significant damage.

sedgro

 

[afss]

Well I decided to give it a try.
I talked to the guy at the LFS and he agreed that if things didn't work out that I could bring second angel back for credit. I got the fish yesterday around 2 in the afternoon.
I floated it in the bag for about 30 minutes, then drip lined it for another 30. Durning this time none of my fish showed any real interest in it. The larger angel looked up at the bag once, and then resumed its normal act of picking at the rocks.
I then put the smaller angel in a clear plastic tu of about 1 gallon size with holes in it for circulation. I fed the smaller anger witch got the attention of all in the tank except the larger angel. The small one ate, and the other fish picked away at the food that drifted out the holes in the containter.
I left the smaller angel in the plastic container for about 2 hours during withch time no one paid anymore attention to it.
I then decided to let it into the tank. About 1 miute later the 2 angels met. They did some funky little dance and parted ways. For the next hour the large angel would chase the smaller angel every 2-3 minutes for 10-15 seconds with an occasional nip or an attempt at a nip. Over the next couple of hours the frequency of chasing subsided to a qucik chase every 5 minutes or so, with both of them picking at the rocks at opposite ends of the tank in between the chases.
I got up this monring before lights on, and when the lights came on it took them about 3 minutes to meet again. There was a chase for about 20 seconds, then they both started eating.
Now 4 hours later they follow each other around a bit. The smaller one will come up to the larger, when the larger sees it the smaller one will head off elsewhere and now the worst of a chase is an occasional body bump. I have also observed them eating from the rocks with in inches of each other now.
Do these experiences in behavior/order match what anyone else has experienced, aside form timeline?
Thanks
Scott
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[Len]

sedgro reminded me of my over-simplification. There are a few Centropyge species that are more hostible towards other Centropyges. These include the aforementioned C.aurantius, and others like C.coloni. Generally with Centropyges(this time, I didn't forget the disclaimer

) the shyer the species, the less aggressive it is towards conspecifics and congenors.

 

[EmilyB]

Sorry for taking so long to remember to go back to this thread (I suppose there must be a way to mark the ones I have participated in, I'll have to get off my butt and read the FAQ)

Mine all look the same to me, they move too freaking fast to get a good look their fins and I'm not really sure what is meant about the spine. They all are different sizes, and the largest is the male, definitely more blue on the face and throat.

There is always a bit of chasing but no nipping, especially in the actinics (spawning time).

 

[Tanu]

Afss: good luck with your angels! My flames have about the same habit as your CB's, only the chasing is a little less..

I must say that it is quite brave to let the new angel in your tank only after a few hours..

Tanu
www.tanu.nl

 

[afss]

Yeah. but like I said I sat there for the whole time about 7 feet away from the tank with no roomlights on except the tank. I find the fish act the most normal at this range and tend to ignore me. The larger angel had no intrest in it, and I was prepared to pull the rocks out if neccesary. Believe me, If the bigger angel had shown any intrest in the smaller one Iwouldn't have let it out.
Have yours shown any spawning rituals or anything
Scott
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