tang / ick / cleaner shrimp

[ToddinAtl]

Hi All,
I've noticed a couple white spots on my regal tang (ick I'll assume). I will also assume ick will spread to the other fish population in the tank. I noticed my yellow tang (no noticable ick spots) getting service from my cleaner shrimp..for almost 3 hours last night. Does this mean the yellow tang is more sensative and wants it pulled off immediately? or does this mean the Regal is too dumb to take advantage of the cleaner's service? Also, will the cleaner completely remedy the ick? or is dosing required? How was ick introduced into my system?

Last night was the first time I've observed the cleaning process and the yellow tang seemed to be in heaven...very cool..I definately want to get a few more of these cleaners. Is there a rule of thumb for the number of cleaner shrimp to be introduced?

 

[Tremelle]

Yes, the cleaner shrimp will help with the ick to a point. But you will ultimately need to remove the condition that is providing the stress to the tangs. How long have you had the regal tang in your tank? If it is a new occupant, all blue tangs get ick in the first weeks of introduction. Regal tangs are notorious for ick. The yellow tang is alittle more tolerant to ick. But ick is in every fish just waiting to come out. Stress is what triggers the outbreak of ick. So I stress, you need to find out what is causing the stress if it is not the introduction of a new fish.

If you feel like you must dose your tank with something, I would suggest you use garlic extract. It does not harm the rest of your tank's inhabitants like some chemicals may. But ick is introduced in every fish, so that is how ick got into your tank.

I have a 105 gallon tank with 4 cleaner shrimp. I have 2 skunk cleaners, and 2 scarlet or blood cleaners. I have never seen an ideal number that should be kept in a tank, but keep in mind they are additional mouths to feed. Yes, they are a sight to behold when they are doing their thing. But no, they will not remedy your ick problem. The only thing that will do that is to remove what is causing the stress.

 

[ToddinAtl]

Thanks Tremelle,
I introduced the Regal about 3 weeks ago to establish his "home" before introducing the Yellow just a few days ago. However, I shopped extensively for the yellow to get a small one. They are both about the same size and have seemed to get along fine. Each has set up there sleeping areas at opposite ends of the tank (80 G) but feed and swim together during the day (up until yesterday). Now the Regal only comes out of his cave to scratch its sides on rock.

When you say dose the tank with garlic extract, are you saying soak the food in garlic or actually pour the extract into the water? If pouring it directly in the water...how much?
Thanks,
Todd

 

[MarkO1]

Tremelle, I agree with you that ich is a parasite that exists in various levels on every fish. I believe an outbreak will occur if water conditions are not prime.
I'm currently trying to treat my purple tang after an outbreak caused by my relocation of my live rock. I think I may have inadvertantly killed a serpent star which drove my nitrite (and probably ammonia at first) up. It's been 25 days so far and I am finally seeing the nitrite drop to around 0.20 ppm.
Yesterday I finally successfully caught the tang and now have him in a 10 gal. quarantine. The ich is still present, but I wonder how long I should keep him quarantined? My other fish, inverts and critters are doing fine.
Appreciate any advise.

 

[Terry B]

First, I must say that ich is NOT present on every fish or in every system. That is simply old wives tale stuff and it certainly is NOT supported by any sort of scientific evidence. This is not voodoo, you are dealing with an obligate parasite that must be introduced and can be eliminated. The vast majority of the time ich is introduced by a failure to properly quarantine before adding fish to a display.
Of course you should correct a source of stress if you can. However, fish can get ich without being unnaturally stressed. Stress does not cause ich, a parasite does. Stress only makes fish more susceptible.
Cleaners will not cure ich. Some people think that because they see cleaners on thier fish that they are eating all of the parasites. Cleaners do not eat everything even when they are on the fish.
The best treatment is hyposalinity. Just like copper, you cannot use hypo with inverts, live rock, or live sand. IF you have a reef tank all the fish must be removed for 30 days of more and treated in a seperate tank. If you have a fish only tank they can be treated right in the display.
Garlic is the only treatment worth mentioning in a reef tank and it works better for a light infection. You do not put garlic in the tank. Soak the foods with liquid garlic extract by Kyolic every day for several weeks.
Terry B

 

[FishHead1]

This link might help
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=9a3a313d46e26928986ab18fcb464526&threadid=43758

 

[Anonymous]

Agreed. I can't believe the notion that "ich is present in every tank" still curculates. "The wealth of ignorance astounds me" as a popular cartoon carachter once said. I've been keeping fish for the better part of 15 years and this nonesense bothered me back then too. I can't for the life of me figure out how such a beliefe has festered and remained for so long. A lack of understanding of the parasites life cycle (and indeed what a life cycle even is) is much of the reason, if not just ignorance of basic biology in general. What's worse is that the information is offered so mattar of factly, as if it's undisputed fact by the "experts." I see fewer posts hocking this misinformation than I used to though. Mayabe there is hope...
Might as well say that emperor angels are present in every tank.

Hasta
Jim

 

[MarkO1]

Wow, thanks for the thrashing! OK, maybe you're right. But I am willing to bet anyone with a "germ free tank" to drop the temp in their tank by 20 deg tonight, wait a week and then get back to us and let us know haw they made out.
Personally, I believe that stress causes breakdown of the fishes' immune system, just like in humans. The lower your immunuty, the more sussceptable to a breakout.
All you herbs out there that have disease and bacteria free tanks must live like the bubble boy.

 

[MarkO1]

Jim, where'd you get your PHD from?

 

[ToddinAtl]

That was a funny link SMCNULTY. I don't think I've done anything that stupid..yet..except last week when I sprayed windex on a napkin and washed the INSIDE glass..may have contributed. BUT, speaking of stupid things...I'll bet noone thought the first guy who fed his fish garlic was totally balanced..

 

[Terry B]

Marco,
Sorry if it sounds harsh, but Jim is on the mark. Nobody here said that tanks are germ free that has nothing to do with whether or not ALL fish or ALL tanks harbor ich. Dropping the water temperature 20F would probably kill most fish with thermal stress, but I will still answer the question. Facultative or opportunistic pathogens are more likely to attack fish when they are that badly stressed. Thermal stress alone can reduce mucus production by 50%. However, not all pathogens are facultative. Cryptocaryon irritans (ich) is not a facultative pathogen, it is an obligate parasite.
Yes, of course, unnatural stress does suppress immune function, but ich can attack fish that are not overly stressed. Stress does not cause ich, it merely makes fish more susceptible. You seem to want to lump all potential pathogens into one group and this simply is not the case. Personally, I do not even use a UV light to keep my tank “disease and bacteria free.” I do quarantine and that eliminates the vast majority of disease problems that would otherwise get into the display.
Terry B

 

[MarkO1]

Sorry for the negativeness, but the one thing I have found in this hobby is that everyone has theories but most of those theories are blatently wrong.
That being said, what is my best course of action?

 

[Terry B]

Hi Marko,
If it makes you feel any more secure I can back my opinions up with scientific references. You cannot treat just one fish to get rid of ich. ALL exposed fish must be treated regardless of any visible spots or not. Otherwise the problem will probably just keep coming back. The best treatment for ich is hyposalinity at 14 to 16ppt salinity (not to be confused with specific gravity)for a minumum of three weeks. You cannot use hypo with inverts or live rock, with them you either have to move ALL the fish or ALL the inverts and live rock to another tank before treatment. The only reef safe treatment worth mentioning is feeding the fish garlic. It works sometimes, but usually with light infections. Do you quarantine? You have moved one fish and left the parasite in your display with other fish.
Terry B

 

[MarkO1]

Well there is only one other fish in the tank (yellow tail damsel) who's been fine so far. But I will remove him (if I can catch the bugger). Ok, 14-16 ppt is what density at 78 deg?
At what rate should I drop my salinity?
Also, will the parasite be eliminated from my display tank if it has no host? Or will it just lie dormant until I add new fish?
Will Ich use other hosts? Shrimp, crabs, starfish or soft corals, or in the live rock?
Final question, how is ich removed in the wild?

 

[Anonymous]

MarkO,
Sorry if the tone of my post was less than diplomatic, I wasn't really trying to single you out.

That whole topic just pushes my buttons...I even read a post some time back where someone stated that cysts are eaten off of the substrate by fish...
Ich cannot lie dormant for an infinite period of time while waiting for another host. While I've heard advice given that one should remove all fish from the affected tank, (good advice if you can manage it) I've found that just removing the symptomatic specimens does the trick. I've always let the tank sit without adding any new fish for at least 60-90 days though. What sometimes happens is that all the old timer fish will be fine, then you add a new fish and boom, more ich. I've seen this on more than one occasion, usually in systems where there is a source of stress - bully fish, whatever. If the desity of the pathogen is great enough, almost any new fish will be affected.
Over time, the parasite is unable to carry out it's life cycle, even with other fish in the tank (again, if these fish are hardy, long term inhabitants and are not symptomatic) and it will no longer be present in the system. Terry might have a very specific time table for how long the critter can hang out witout a suitable host. I've had good success with the 60-90 day rule.

Edit: On the note of PhD's, since you brought it up. The ones I've been aquanted with are mostly in the field of herpetology, but the same holds true here. One of the nicest however was a marine biologist fellow from whom I learned a great deal about the intertidal zone. Anyway... once you meet enough of them you will discover that some are wonderful people, with a wealth of knowledge to lend you. Others just carry the card and know nothing more than an experienced hobbiest. You would also find if you experienced enough of the company of such individuals is that sometimes acadamia gets on the way of learning. Many PhD's would not give you the time of day. I've seen PhD's struggle to breed and understand the behavior of a certain species of a animal, only to fail repeatedly. I've then observed them refuse to communicate with a hobbiest who has worked a bred that particular species of animal with little trouble. It's sounds funny, and it's hard to explain, but I've seen it over and over. I've seen zoo keepers engange in the same sort of behavior.
So, the moral of the story, don't discount the statments made by someone on this board because they don't carry a degree of some sort, and don't read as gospel the words spoken by someone who does.

JimM

[ October 30, 2001: Message edited by: JimM ]

[ October 30, 2001: Message edited by: JimM ]</p>

 

[Terry B]

My opinion differs just slightly from Jim’s. You should leave the tank fishless for a minimum of 30 days. Six weeks is a little safer but 30 days is usually long enough with Cryptocaryon irritans. Much longer with Amyloodinium.
The correct specific gravity varies with the temperature of the water. What temperature is your hydrometer calibrated for? If you hydrometer is calibrated for reef type temperatures then an SG of 1.009 at 78F should be fine. Don’t trust plastic swing arm hydrometers. I only use LARGE glass ones.
Ich is an obligate parasite meaning it must have a host to survive. No fish = no host. The invertebrates will be fine. Ich is not a problem in the wild, due in part to the fact that the density of animals is much lower than any aquarium. In an aquarium fish cannot swim away or escape from ich.
BTW, I agree with Jim about Marine Biologists. I have one in my family and they don't know squat about aquariums or disease treatments.
Terry B

 

[SPC]

Originally posted by JimM:
I've seen PhD's struggle to breed...
Yea me too!
Steve

 

[MarkO1]

OK guys, appreciate the info.
Questions:
1. my quarantine is 10G is that big enough for a 4" purple tang and a yellowtail damned-sel (yes... after an hour I finally caught the bugger)?
2. SG of 1.009 is pretty low, will that hurt my fish over a six or so long week period, or do I keep it at that gravity for only a short period of time (how long)
3. What about medications? Green something or other? Should I use them in combination?
4. The quarantine only has a heater and powerhead... bare bottom w/ no live rock. (I do have a couple pieces of pvc tubing in there to give them hiding places) Any other recommendations?
5. pH and water changes... how much and how often?

Sorry for rambling...

Thanks in advance.

 

[Terry B]

A ten gallon is small of course but it will have to do. Keep the salinity down for 4 weeks. The fish will probably surprise you with how well they do. Keep the display fishless 4 to 6 weeks. No medication, at least at this point. Keep an eye out for secondary bacterial infection. Does the powerhead keep the water surface bubbling? What are you using for biological filtration? I use a sponge filter that has been seeded with bacteria by placing it in my sump for a couple of weeks. You can also use a biowheel off an established tank. Give them plenty of PVC pipe to hide in. Check the pH and alkalinity daily and add a buffer as needed. Make sure that you have an accurate hydrometer or refractometer. Water changes will be dictated by the fact that you have no biological filtration. Feed LIGHTLY and add vitamins and Selcon to the feed.
Terry B

 

[MarkO1]

My tang doesn't like the aeration, but I've kept it to a bare minimum so that it doesn't bother him much. It does a good job breaking the surface. I added some medication yesterday - 11.52% formalin /0038% malachite green. The tang seems to be doing well as he ate flake readily today.
I'll keep the feeding to a minimum. I'll gradually lower salinity by 0.01/day for the next week or so, gradually bringing it down to 1.009 (it's at 1.020 now) then I'll hold off. (I want to make sure he isn't stressing more than he already is). Then I'll hold it at 1.009 for 4 weeks before I reintroduce them both to the main tank.
I'm concerned about ammonia in the quarantine. Will it build up quick w/ a daily feeding of about a dozen small (1/4" dia) flakes? I'm concerned that minimal natural bio-filtration may not be established with frequent water changes. Will hypo-salinity kill any existing nitrobacteria (nitrosococus... etc?)
Thanks in advance.