LeslieS

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I have been in New World before and had them try to dissuade a guy from buying fish for an art exhibit. The "artist" assistant was trying to buy for color. The sales guy was obviously distressed that he couldn't get them to not buy anything. After several phone calls between the artist and the assisstant, the salesman did get them to buy less and more appropriate fish and the guy promised that they would be put in his home tank afterward. It looked as though the sales person wanted to guide them toward the front of the store and out onto the sidewalk without the fish. He looked a little heartbroken when they left the store.
 

Kedd

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He was talking to his buddy, and I was looking at the same tank.
I don't think anyone at the store knew, but they may have.

I could have said( hey I was just ease-dropping) what are you thinking? LOL
 

russianmd

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The timing of this thread could not be any more perfect. My tank was set up two weeks ago exactly, and I am definitely planning to go with "start low, go slow' approach.

I think there are two parallel conversations going on - when is a tank ready to be stocked, and how should one stock it. The topics are obviously related.

At least for now, my plan is softies, lps, clams, a few chromis, one tang, and a pair of clowns - for a 120g tank. Will I add everything at once? NO - because I hate losing livestock.

Will I get more ambitious later on and get the expert-only fish/coral/inverts? Possibly.

LeslieS, I really appreciated your condensing and posting the timeline for your stocking of the tank. It would be great if others gave examples of how they stocked theirs!

Tank threads are fun to read, but it takes a while to get the sort of info that LeslieS posted. Please, post more! What's your plan, Kedd?
 
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LeslieS

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Russian MD,

This is a good chart to use. It helped me keep track of what was going on in the tank. I also added things like when live stock was added, any medication I added to the tank, and any supplements. I whish I had kept track of what I was feeding in the beginning as well. It was hard to get the hang of not too much. It would have been easier to look and see - "oh, I was feeding 10 cubes a day right before I developed and algae problem." :)

As a newbie (still a newbie BTW), the chart was sort of a security blanket while I started to develop a more innate sense of what was going on in the tank.
 

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Kedd

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Russianmd,
My situation was not a start from scratch tank.

I took off the top portion of my rock with all SPS attached, because of Acro Eating Flat Worms(AEFW's).
I replaced it with new rock, but kept all the LPS and livestock in the tank.
The sand and lower rock was not touched.

Before I did all this the new rock(30- 40 lbs) was slowly added to the sump.
I waited about a month and started to replace the old with new.
I didn't worry about how it looked at that time, I just wanted to get all the SPS out which meant huge chunks of rock.
I did this 2 times.
After all was changed I think about 40% of the reef, I arranged the rock.

I think trying to remove all the animals would have been more stressful than having them stay put.

Since I already have a good amount of livestock I don't plan on adding.
I'm testing the water on a regular basis( which wasn't the case in the past).
I have to figure out my dosing needs all over again.
Most of all I'm keeping my hands out of the tank, and keeping a very close eye on things.
As long as the water tests are decent, I won't do a water change for a few weeks.
If it is in a small cycle I don't want to prolong it with water changes.

Just hurry up and wait now.
 
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russianmd

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It must be really difficult, Kedd - I saw your tank as the tank of the month, and how great it looked. I am sure the new one will look even better!

And yes, 'hurry up and wait' seems to be one of the keys to success.
 

russianmd

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Thanks, Leslie! I will be putting it to good use (and from now, will keep better track of the lovely ladies of MR) :redface: -Arkady

Russian MD,

This is a good chart to use. It helped me keep track of what was going on in the tank. I also added things like when live stock was added, any medication I added to the tank, and any supplements. I whish I had kept track of what I was feeding in the beginning as well. It was hard to get the hang of not too much. It would have been easier to look and see - "oh, I was feeding 10 cubes a day right before I developed and algae problem." :)

As a newbie (still a newbie BTW), the chart was sort of a security blanket while I started to develop a more innate sense of what was going on in the tank.
 

herman

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FIRST OFF SEE TANK OF THE SEASON!!! THATS Kedds tank. Kedd is talking mainly SPS and not zoas. Zoas are tougher to kill than roaches. Ive been trying to kill them suckers and failed miserably!!! Sure you can add everything once your parameters check out, but that does not mean that your tank is ready for SPS. And just because SPS dont die does not mean that its thriving. The way Kedds tank was before the teardown was IMO absolutely ideal for corals and fish. The growth and the color he had was definitely in the top 5 of the MR members. Did I mention he was featured on RC as well?

Really makes me wonder why people are advising him on noob stuff.

Kedd, fwiw, I agree with the coraline growth. If its ideal conditions for coraline to spread in the manner you had it b4 then you are definitely ready to take all your corals back!!! Also, deep down inside you know when the tank is ready. Youre a natural at this game!!!
 

Kedd

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Thanks Herman, yes I know when I'm ready.

The thread wasn't so much for me or anyone in particular, just wanted to see what most people thought.

I really should have started it in reefs for beginners.
 

loismustdie

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Here's how I do it. Flame away.
I start slow. I never took an actual count but I waited until my nutrient levels were near zero for a couple of weeks before I add anything. And when I do, I started an algae cleaning crew to handle the brown algaes that come with a new set up. Once they have it under control, I add some hard to kill stuff like zoos and shrooms. If people were to look at my tank right now, they would still find some stray zoas and mushrooms from my cycle. Like Herman said, these are nearly impossible to kill and I can't seem to get them out.
Once they are good and give me some indications of growth, I add LPS and maybe a tang and algae blenny and I'll start running my skimmer. Usually after a few months when my LPS start showing some decline (water is cleaner than they like) and I have spots of coraline algae at least the size of a silver dollar, I know I can go SPS. I sell off all my LPS, zoas and shrooms and add SPS.
Once my SPS show good growth and have an established foothold, I start adding more fish.
Obviously due to my circumstances of deployments, my tank has been restarted a couple of times, but I still took a patient approach.
Eric, Randy is one of our most experienced members and he had die-off when he did his upgrade. SPS are not zoos. What you said is untrue.
Lissa, you are unconventional in your approach, but not wrong. I think you may want to point out your husbandry and maintenance. I had a SPS tank many years back where I would say I followed your approach. The tank was successful, but it was a ton of work. IMO, not worth the effort I had to put into it when I could have just taken my time and done a better job. You know we are also going to tell you that a mandarin in a 29 is mean.
I agree with Kedd in that this thread is really for everyone to post their experience and techniques. But those who show no stocking discipline really should avoid posting since as Phil said, you are now pushing practices most of us try to deter. Just because it works for one person while 10 others failed, does that make it a success?
 
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digitalreefer

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Eric, Randy is one of our most experienced members and he had die-off when he did his upgrade. SPS are not zoos. What you said is untrue.

What did I say that was untrue? I stated that there wasn't always an option to stock slowly during an upgrade, not that there wouldn't be die off. Most people can't run 2 tanks for a month to slowly move to the new one... especially if the new one is going in place of the old one.
 
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Brief thread hijack:

You know we are also going to tell you that a mandarin in a 29 is mean.

I purchased the mandarin because I was told he was eating cyclopeeze. Fine, I shouldn't have listened to my LFS. Fine, I should have asked for a demonstration. According to Scott Michael, the minimum tank size for a mandarin is 20 gallons. Given those factors, I was confident I could provide for it. I have been killing myself for the past two months trying to get enough food to him, and killing my water quality. I was not trying to be "mean" and quite frankly, the insinuation that I don't care about my livestock really hurts my feelings. I've been thinking about taking him out and trying to find a better home for him for at least half the time I've had him.

Back to the point:

As far as stocking goes, I didn't stock quickly. My levels were at zero for a week - as it happened, I NEVER showed any ammonia or nitrite. I started much the way you did Chris - cleaning crew and some zoas, and I also put in chromis. My point in all previous posts was simply that once the cycle starts, you're ready to start stocking. Just do it slowly and be smart with what you put in, and LS is not necessarily doomed.

Look, of course it makes sense to wait a few weeks after your levels are zero to start stocking a tank. I'm not arguing that. And sure, it makes sense to promote that on this site. But how many people actually do that? It's like saying the best form of birth control is not to have sex. Fine, it's true, but how many people are going to follow that? My point is IF you are going to stock right at the end of your cycle, the best chance your LS will have is if you stock slowly and in a smart way and do your homework first.
 

Chiefmcfuz

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You know one can argue that keeping fish in a tank period is mean, they are wild animals that belong in the wild, and that we should go to their natural environment if we want to see them. Also Zoo's are inhumane and should all be closed. One can argue that an apartment is too small for a mini poodle let alone a a St Bernard. One can argue the same about a house and a mansion. Here is my point: This is actually a great discussion and I am enjoying all of the input here. Lets keep it cool and not let it get dirty.

Eric, I completely agree with you about not having room for 2 tanks in the event of an upgrade (I live in a condo). In a perfect world everyone would have enough room to do whatever they want to do when they want to do it, but alas that isn't the real world we live in. We only have the room we can afford to live in and sometimes that doesn't involve alot of room.
 

Kedd

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Look, of course it makes sense to wait a few weeks after your levels are zero to start stocking a tank. I'm not arguing that. And sure, it makes sense to promote that on this site. But how many people actually do that? .

This was the question, and why I started the thread.
I waited more that a few weeks, but that was MY choice.
I didn't even run lights for 2 months, but it was what MY tank needed.
All tanks are different and so the cycle will be too.

Ellebelle, I not even going THERE about what live stock should be in what size tank.
When it goes in was the question.

It is VERY apparent you care about you livestock.:grouphug:

I should post a pic of mine now and the live stock in it you might feel better. LOL
 

Quang

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FIRST OFF SEE TANK OF THE SEASON!!! THATS Kedds tank. Kedd is talking mainly SPS and not zoas. Zoas are tougher to kill than roaches. Ive been trying to kill them suckers and failed miserably!!! Sure you can add everything once your parameters check out, but that does not mean that your tank is ready for SPS. And just because SPS dont die does not mean that its thriving. The way Kedds tank was before the teardown was IMO absolutely ideal for corals and fish. The growth and the color he had was definitely in the top 5 of the MR members. Did I mention he was featured on RC as well?

Really makes me wonder why people are advising him on noob stuff.

Kedd, fwiw, I agree with the coraline growth. If its ideal conditions for coraline to spread in the manner you had it b4 then you are definitely ready to take all your corals back!!! Also, deep down inside you know when the tank is ready. Youre a natural at this game!!!


Word!
I was surprised to see Kedd start a thread on a very basic concept, and asking the question himself. And then to see new members give very elementary advice to this man was surprising, pathetic, and somewhat comical. Kedd, you are a natural like Herman said. You're also very humble IMO :).

If we're talking about when to add SPS, I think it's absolutely safe once we have new coralline growth, as Pratt and other seasoned members indicated. Yes, you can try to add SPS before this indication, but you're making a sure bet of success if you stick to this rule of thumb, IMO. Digital mentioned that some tanks are unfavorable to coralline growth due to insufficient flow. Well, I thought SPS required good flow...and that goes hand in hand with coralline growth. I don't know about you, but that makes sense to me :scratchch.
 
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Quang

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On a side note, something about Elle and Phil's exchange made me want to say the following:

Although I'm a nano-reefer at heart, and have kept nothing but nano-reefs, I would not recommend it to beginners or any hobbyists for that matter. Because the chances of him/her doing it incorrectly, with patience and diligence, are greater than the chances of that person doing it correctly. Yes, I'm pessimistic when it comes to this.

Apologies for the hijack Kedd, but I had to say my piece on this matter.

:backtotop
 
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loismustdie

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One can argue that an apartment is too small for a mini poodle let alone a a St Bernard.
People on dog forums have this debate. This is a reef forum, so we talk about fish and coral.
Also Zoo's are inhumane and should all be closed.
Before I say anything, are you comparing a zoo, where professional zoologists, biologists and veterinarians provide for animals, many of which have an outlying, incurable medical condition/deformity which would mean certain death in the wild, or are actually performing controlled breeding with exceptional bloodlines in order to restore numbers in the wild or research of the animal and it's habitat to a person, a hobbyist... who buys a fish because they had to have it? Maybe I misread what you are saying here.
Wow, nice to see how all that was written about how I establish my tank, which is clearly geared towards SPS keepers, is all thrown away for 1 sentence observation:
You know we are also going to tell you that a mandarin in a 29 is mean.
Lissa, I read a previous post where you said 9 days. 9 days isn't a whole lot.
Look, of course it makes sense to wait a few weeks after your levels are zero to start stocking a tank. I'm not arguing that. And sure, it makes sense to promote that on this site. But how many people actually do that?
No body will, as long as people continue to post "hey, I did this and it worked for me". People today are much more inclined to make the easy wrong than the hard right. Think about it like this... Common knowledge is that you need 75 pounds of LR to reasonably expect to sustain 1 mandarin. You heard that they can do fine in a 20. That is the answer you wanted to hear, so you went with it.
Now turn this around, someone wants to know how long it will take to cycle a tank. They see my method and they see your method. Which one do you think they are going to follow?
Jeeze, I just pointed out something and all of a sudden, it's a hijack and we are comparing it to zoos, dogs and birth control.
 

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