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randy holmes-farley

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There has been some suggestion on Reef Central that mangroves may deplete magnesium from reef tanks because they have a magnesium/sodium transporter that helps them stay in salt balance. Others suggested that the salt is then excreted on the leaves (which IME, is true, some salt is excreted).

So to test the hypothesis I collected two salt grains from a mangrove leaf, dried it out, and tested it for magnesium. The details are given below for those interested. Note that this is but a single test, and tests by others would help substantiate this tentative result. For that matter, the resuilts are probably available in the literature, but it's faster to run the test than to try to look the answer up.

The result is that this salt is not enriched in magnesium. In fact, I find it greatly depleted in magnesium relative to natural seawater. Thus, if this result is true, this cannot be a magnesium depletion mechanism in reef tanks.

Here's exactly how I did the test:

I looked over the two mangroves in my refugium. Many of the older leaves had a very thin coating of salt on them, which looked shiny/wet in places as the humidity is high in my basement refugium area. On one leaf I saw two larger chunks (about the size of a tick!) that could be collected.

I put them both into a single scintillation vial, and dried them in high vacuum at 45 deg C for 24 h. The resulting weight was 0.010 g (i.e., not much).

I dissolved the grains in 5.83 mL of DI water, which is the size of the collection tube of the Hach hardness test kit. The grains readily and apparently completely dissolved. I let the sample sit for several hours.

I then tested the sample with the Hach Total Hardness and Calcium test kit #1457-01. The sample was pink before any EDTA titrant was added, but turned completely blue after only a single drop of titrant. Thus, the concentration of Mg++ in the tested sample was less than 20 ppm of CaCO3 equivalent.


So how much magnesium might have been there?

20 ppm CaCO3 equivalent = 20 mg/L CaCO3 = 0.02 g/L CaCO3

= 0.00020 moles/L CaCO3 equivalent

= 1.2 x 10-6 moles/5.83 mL

= 0.000028 g Mg++ maximum

So the initial 0.01 g sample was less than 0.28% magnesium by weight.

Of the salts in seawater, magnesium comprises about 3.7% of the total by weight.

Consequently, this salt sample was depleted in magnesium relative to seawater. If this test is correct, excretion from leaves cannot be a significant sink for magnesium in reef tanks.

Even if this sample were pure MgCl2, it would require more than a thousand such mangroves to deplete the magnesium by 1% in my reef tank.
 

jamesw

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Randy,

Thank you very much for performing the test and posting the info. I too have a large mangrove (3 yrs) in my refugium w/ the salt buildup on the leaves.

James
 
A

Anonymous

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jamesw:
<STRONG>Randy,

Thank you very much for performing the test and posting the info. I too have a large mangrove (3 yrs) in my refugium w/ the salt buildup on the leaves.

James</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You should give those leaves an occasional spray-down...

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: Cheese Sandwich ]
 

THEFishHead

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Dear Randy,

Interesting study, but you need to do a couple of follow ups because the premise was based on an erroneous assupmtion.

Most people keeping mangroves are keeping Rhizophora mangle. I presume that yours are R. mangle as well. Rhizophora do not excrete salt ON the leaves, they mostly prevent it from entering the roots, and they system they use for this exclusion, as I understand it, involves magnesium. They do deposit some salt WITHIN the leaves, however.

If you are seeing salt on your R. mangle leaves, it is salt spray, not excretion.

Black mangroves, Avicennia spp., do excrete salt on the leaves. I don't know if Magnesium is important for them. If you like, I can collect some Avicennia salt and a sample of the surrounding water and send them to you for a test.

Regarding your mangroves, it would be interesting to do a salt analysis on the leaves. You should collect them and try it.

For what it's worth, I have found very little in the literature on mangroves that describes the use of magnesium in the salt exclusion process. I would be interested in any references you are aware of that describe it. Please have a look at the mangrove guide available as a PDF file on the TLF website:
www.twolittlefishies.com

Best Regards,

Julian Sprung

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Randy Holmes-Farley:
<STRONG>There has been some suggestion on Reef Central that mangroves may deplete magnesium from reef tanks because they have a magnesium/sodium transporter that helps them stay in salt balance. Others suggested that the salt is then excreted on the leaves (which IME, is true, some salt is excreted).

So to test the hypothesis I collected two salt grains from a mangrove leaf, dried it out, and tested it for magnesium. The details are given below for those interested. Note that this is but a single test, and tests by others would help substantiate this tentative result. For that matter, the resuilts are probably available in the literature, but it's faster to run the test than to try to look the answer up.

The result is that this salt is not enriched in magnesium. In fact, I find it greatly depleted in magnesium relative to natural seawater. Thus, if this result is true, this cannot be a magnesium depletion mechanism in reef tanks.

Here's exactly how I did the test:

I looked over the two mangroves in my refugium. Many of the older leaves had a very thin coating of salt on them, which looked shiny/wet in places as the humidity is high in my basement refugium area. On one leaf I saw two larger chunks (about the size of a tick!) that could be collected.

I put them both into a single scintillation vial, and dried them in high vacuum at 45 deg C for 24 h. The resulting weight was 0.010 g (i.e., not much).

I dissolved the grains in 5.83 mL of DI water, which is the size of the collection tube of the Hach hardness test kit. The grains readily and apparently completely dissolved. I let the sample sit for several hours.

I then tested the sample with the Hach Total Hardness and Calcium test kit #1457-01. The sample was pink before any EDTA titrant was added, but turned completely blue after only a single drop of titrant. Thus, the concentration of Mg++ in the tested sample was less than 20 ppm of CaCO3 equivalent.


So how much magnesium might have been there?

20 ppm CaCO3 equivalent = 20 mg/L CaCO3 = 0.02 g/L CaCO3

= 0.00020 moles/L CaCO3 equivalent

= 1.2 x 10-6 moles/5.83 mL

= 0.000028 g Mg++ maximum

So the initial 0.01 g sample was less than 0.28% magnesium by weight.

Of the salts in seawater, magnesium comprises about 3.7% of the total by weight.

Consequently, this salt sample was depleted in magnesium relative to seawater. If this test is correct, excretion from leaves cannot be a significant sink for magnesium in reef tanks.

Even if this sample were pure MgCl2, it would require more than a thousand such mangroves to deplete the magnesium by 1% in my reef tank.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 

Mouse

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Respect to Randy, you really must have quite an extensive Aquarium/Batcave setup. And i would also like to thak you for the help you have given me recently.

Respect to Julian, i didn't realise that you frequented boards such as these. I havn't used any of your products yet but i have bought your latest book on corals. I must say that as an aquarist and a dive instructor i think your coral book is one of the best around. Ill be sure to try out some of your products as someone who is as in tune with the hobbys advances as yourself cant be wrong. Nice thread guys.

* Bows, curtsys and salutes all round going home to say 100 hail marys and give myself a damn good flogging *

[ September 17, 2001: Message edited by: Mouse ]
 

randy holmes-farley

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Arlington, MA
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Julian:

Thanks very much for the info. When it was first suggested to me that there was a magnesium/sodium transporter, I assumed it was in the roots, and posted a rejection to the premise that it could cause a magnesium problem in reef tanks.

When someone else later suggested that it was from the leaf surfaces, I decided to test my leaf surface.

Do you know what form the magnesium is supposed to take inside the leaves?

I'm not sure of the species that I have. I bought them from Sea Critters.
 

olgakurt

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Randy,

I would expect your mangroves were R. mangle. It has the branching prop roots whereas the black mangrove has the pneumatophores. The leaves of the red mangrove are bright green whereas the leaves of the black are dull green with a silverish underside.

I searched for Mg info and found very little. I found a few references indicating that the Mg may be incorporated in some of the pigments and tannins
_________________
Mercedes Benz W125
 

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