A
Anonymous
Guest
Has anyone used or does know if DSBs and skimming can be used in freshwater tanks to get the same benefits of nitrate and algae control.
-Greg
-Greg
A
Anonymous
Guest
As far as skimmers go, freshwater doesn't "froth" as well as saltwater, so they won't work as well. Bob Goemens once mentioned something about adding "frothing agents" to freshwater to aid in this, but that's all I know.
As far as DSB, bear in mind different freshwater habitats have different pHs, so for instance aragonite may not be the right choice... In principle, though, a DSB should do well with denitification, just like they do in saltwater, although the lack of sand-stirring & sand-boring creatures may be an issue.
[ September 17, 2001: Message edited by: Cheese Sandwich ]
As far as DSB, bear in mind different freshwater habitats have different pHs, so for instance aragonite may not be the right choice... In principle, though, a DSB should do well with denitification, just like they do in saltwater, although the lack of sand-stirring & sand-boring creatures may be an issue.
[ September 17, 2001: Message edited by: Cheese Sandwich ]
If you'd want to try it, use silica sand for a DSB in your freshwater setup. I do seem to remember someone over at ReefCentral in Dr. Ron's forum posted how they converted their outside koi pond into a DSB with silica sand. You may want to go over there and do a search (once they have their DNS problem worked out).
I agree w/ Cheese Sandwich about skimmers not working in freshwater. It has something to do with the various ionic species comparing freshwater vs. saltwater. I would think that Bob is on the right track by adding some sort of "biologically safe" floculating agent to a freshwater system to aid in floculating the various proteins together so a skimmer would work properly in freshwater. Heh, it would be something interesting to work on.
liquid
I agree w/ Cheese Sandwich about skimmers not working in freshwater. It has something to do with the various ionic species comparing freshwater vs. saltwater. I would think that Bob is on the right track by adding some sort of "biologically safe" floculating agent to a freshwater system to aid in floculating the various proteins together so a skimmer would work properly in freshwater. Heh, it would be something interesting to work on.
liquid
Finding a way to use a skimmer on freshwater might be a great project.....Hmmmmm
Silica makes sense for the DSB for most setups, however, I was thinking for my african tank using aragonite. The pH should be ok, but the sand stiring might be an issue. Maybe not as africans like to dig!
Anyone else know of freshwater setups using this technology?
-Greg
Silica makes sense for the DSB for most setups, however, I was thinking for my african tank using aragonite. The pH should be ok, but the sand stiring might be an issue. Maybe not as africans like to dig!
Anyone else know of freshwater setups using this technology?
-Greg
I used to maintain Cichlid tank incorporating a skimmer. The production of skimate is no where as much as I would see in any SW tanks, but it works. However, I must point out, the tank water is very hard (key ingredient to make bubbles), with slight salinity. If it were the average FW tank (unlike the hard water cichlid tanks), I would imagin foam production will be very difficult.
my former neighbor has a 125 and a 120, both african tanks and both are set up with a South Down DSB and they both seemed to work very well. He switched one over from a crushed coral substrate after starting the other with the DSB, because he liked the DSB better. I believe it was working the same as it would in a SW tank, he told me that he was starting to see air bubbles form in the bed. The only drawback I've seen from it was that when the africans dig they cloud up the water.
HTH,
Ryan
HTH,
Ryan
Greg,
I see no reason for not putting a skimmer on a freshwater tank; since, minimally you'll make sure the water is well oxygenated. 8^) I would'nt spend a lot of money on the skimmer though and would try a used, air-stone driven unit first.
Per your DSB/Freshwater question, I think Goemans (spelling) FAMA has several acticles on such (also utilizing a plenum) which you might want to read. Sorry, I don't remember which volume/issue. 8^(
Scott
I see no reason for not putting a skimmer on a freshwater tank; since, minimally you'll make sure the water is well oxygenated. 8^) I would'nt spend a lot of money on the skimmer though and would try a used, air-stone driven unit first.
Per your DSB/Freshwater question, I think Goemans (spelling) FAMA has several acticles on such (also utilizing a plenum) which you might want to read. Sorry, I don't remember which volume/issue. 8^(
Scott
FWIW:
Large skimmers are used in waste treatment facilities for FRESHWATER! The aquarium industry borrowed the technology from the waste treatment industry. As far as DSB, I believe a fluidized bed might work better for filtration. Also, Biowheels work great for my FW tank, which I neglect terribly and have not lost a fish in over a year (knock on wood...)
E
Large skimmers are used in waste treatment facilities for FRESHWATER! The aquarium industry borrowed the technology from the waste treatment industry. As far as DSB, I believe a fluidized bed might work better for filtration. Also, Biowheels work great for my FW tank, which I neglect terribly and have not lost a fish in over a year (knock on wood...)
E
I have been using a deep sand bed in my FW planted tank for about 2 years. I did it for the plants before I even new DSBs were the thing.
It is hard to say in a plant tank whether the nitrates have been reduced or not (too many variables for me). I used pool filter sand for the substrate and can say that I have had no problems with sulfer build up etc..., but I am sure the plant roots help in this process. I also have Trumpet snails (about 1 billion I think
), they live in the sand and keep yhe top layer stirred up but only go about 1/4" deep.
Steve
Steve
Thanks for the replies everyone. Sounds like others had the same idea
I going to try using an old BakPac that I have for skimming. We'll ses what happens. I need a new pump for it though, what was the alternative for a Rio?
In addition, as long as I'm experimenting I think I'll setup a freshwater refugium. It might be a great way to feed the fry and help with nitrate reduction.
Will anyone recommend a source for Trumpet snails?
-Greg
I going to try using an old BakPac that I have for skimming. We'll ses what happens. I need a new pump for it though, what was the alternative for a Rio?
In addition, as long as I'm experimenting I think I'll setup a freshwater refugium. It might be a great way to feed the fry and help with nitrate reduction.
Will anyone recommend a source for Trumpet snails?
-Greg
Its just a rumour, but i have actually heard that certain companys will be producing FW skimmers. Weather the design will be adapted to accomodate the difference in water chemistry is unknown but highly likely. But im sure with a little investigation you could confirm this rumour, i might add that my LFS are not people to tell fish storys.
I'll do some snooping around and see what's in the forefront of the freshwater technology field. I wonder what design modifications could be introduced that would compensate for the chemical differences?
Duckweed would be a great idea. Translate: Duckweed will make great tang food.
-Greg
Duckweed would be a great idea. Translate: Duckweed will make great tang food.
-Greg
I'm reading a little bit about skimmers and foam separators in the Aquatic Eco-Systems catalog www.aquaticeco.com. With regard to one of their foam separators they mention the use of dried albumin to increase foam production. They mention their commercial sized skimmers as being FW and SW compatible. I think they are Emperor Aquatics skimmers. I've heard hard freshwater skims the best. I would think that if you oversized your skimmer and blow as many tiny bubbles you could through it, it would pull something out.
[ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: fishfarmer ]
[ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: fishfarmer ]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GDawson:
<STRONG>Duckweed would be a great idea. Translate: Duckweed will make great tang food.
</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually freshwater plants probably wouldn't be very nutritious for tangs...
<STRONG>Duckweed would be a great idea. Translate: Duckweed will make great tang food.
</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually freshwater plants probably wouldn't be very nutritious for tangs...
Fishfarmer-
Interesting information. I wonder if Creme of Tatre would do the same. I use it to stablize egg whites(albumin)and heavy cream for whipping. Actually if I remember correctly Creme of Tatre IS albumin recovered from wine production. Time to start experimenting.
This could open whole new areas in freshwater management.
BTW- Is anyone interested in the main ingrediant of Black Powder? I can tell you where you can purchase it for under $10.00 for 5lbs.
-Greg
[ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: GDawson ]
Interesting information. I wonder if Creme of Tatre would do the same. I use it to stablize egg whites(albumin)and heavy cream for whipping. Actually if I remember correctly Creme of Tatre IS albumin recovered from wine production. Time to start experimenting.
This could open whole new areas in freshwater management.
BTW- Is anyone interested in the main ingrediant of Black Powder? I can tell you where you can purchase it for under $10.00 for 5lbs.
-Greg
[ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: GDawson ]
randy holmes-farley
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- Arlington, MA
The reason that skimmers don't work as well in freshwater is that many organics are more soluble in fresh water than in salt water.
There is a well known effect in chemistry that many organics can be forced to precipitate from fresh water by adding salt. This is called "salting out". THe ions, in effect, make the water a much poorer solvent for most organics.
Consequently, the relative preference of organics for the air/water interface over salt water is greater than the preference in fresh water.
I suggested many years ago that one might be able to increase skimming effectiveness in both salt and fresh water by using appropriate organic surface active agents. Unfortunately, most of these have their own drawbacks, and I haven't seen any tank-based experimental results. The general idea, however, is clearly known to chemists, and has been studies in other fields such as foam production.
[ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: Randy Holmes-Farley ]
There is a well known effect in chemistry that many organics can be forced to precipitate from fresh water by adding salt. This is called "salting out". THe ions, in effect, make the water a much poorer solvent for most organics.
Consequently, the relative preference of organics for the air/water interface over salt water is greater than the preference in fresh water.
I suggested many years ago that one might be able to increase skimming effectiveness in both salt and fresh water by using appropriate organic surface active agents. Unfortunately, most of these have their own drawbacks, and I haven't seen any tank-based experimental results. The general idea, however, is clearly known to chemists, and has been studies in other fields such as foam production.
[ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: Randy Holmes-Farley ]
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