Where does the idea that ich is present in all aquariums com

[jmeader]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by esmithiii:
<STRONG>OK, I think I understand. I know I am being dense, but bear with me and see if I got it right. If I understand what Grandis and Butch are saying, then you suggest the following procedure be followed religiously to eradicate the ick from the display aquarium:

1) All new inverts/liverock introduced to the display aquarium should be quarentined for at least 20 days to kill any parasites present.

2) If the reefkeeper is familiar enough with a particular species to know symptoms of a low level infestation (including but not limited to slight behavioral cues, slight coloration variation, respiration rate abnormalities, scratching, positioning in high flow areas, etc) then Fish should be quarentined for at least one week for observation.

3) If the reefkeeper is not very familiar with the species, it should be placed in a hospital tank and medicated.

Is this what you are suggesting? Now my wife will have to put up w/ TWO extra tanks!

Ernie</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That would give you a much better chance. I quarantine for a minimum of 3 weeks and more often a month or more. That gives time for at least 2 to 3 cycles and each cycle will generally be stronger and easier to spot. For fish it would just be easier and quicker to medicate. I only use meds when necessary though and then only in the hospital tank.

 

[esmithiii]

Grandis:

So you are saying that you never add anything to your tanks without A) medicating it or B) qarantining it for at least a month. How many tanks do you have for this? You even quarentine liverock?

JMeader:

You know the signs well enough and the species well enough to spot a latent infection? How many hospital/quarentine tanks do you have? How big are the tanks? I mean I plan on keeping tangs, so wouldn't putting them in a small tank simply stress them more? What kind of filtration do you use for your quarantine tanks? How about for your hospital tanks? What kind of lighting do you use for your quarentine tanks? I mean, if you are going to quarentine an SPS frag that you get it should be under some pretty intense lighting, right? How many MH lights do you have?

I am sorry if I am asking dumb questions; I simply want to understand.

 

[jmeader]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by esmithiii:
<STRONG>

JMeader:

You know the signs well enough and the species well enough to spot a latent infection? How many hospital/quarentine tanks do you have? How big are the tanks? I mean I plan on keeping tangs, so wouldn't putting them in a small tank simply stress them more? What kind of filtration do you use for your quarantine tanks? How about for your hospital tanks? What kind of lighting do you use for your quarentine tanks? I mean, if you are going to quarentine an SPS frag that you get it should be under some pretty intense lighting, right? How many MH lights do you have?

I am sorry if I am asking dumb questions; I simply want to understand.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know some species well enough that after 3 weeks , if I have not spotted anything, then I'm comfortable with putting them in a main tank. The longer you keep them in Q, the better your chances of spotting anything wrong. And I might mention that ich is one of the least troublesome problems that I've kept from going past my Q tank.
My regular Q tank is 100 gal. Sometimes I'll use my 30 or 55 as a Q tank. I don't have a space problem so I've also set up temp Q tanks when needed. For filtration I use sponge filters on the Q and hosp tanks. You can see what all I use and have on my web site.
Now corals and LR I don't quarantine. I just give them a FW dip and a good shaking while in the FW dip. The reason being that while cysts may become hung up in mucous, they don't actually ATTACH themselves to anything. They just drop from the fish and settle to the bottom.
By the way, I don't use MHs or keep SPSs. I use NOs on the 30 and 55. I use VHOs over the system tanks.

 

[SPC]

E, I have seen Butch's system in person and I can tell you its more than just a little impressive. He has an area that encompasses about 64 sq ft that is dedicated just to quarantine. I doubt I will ever meet anyone else in my life time that is as dedicated to their systems as Butch is.
Steve

 

[esmithiii]

I am not questioning anyone's system. I am trying to formulate a realistic procedure for quarantining my fish so that I don't have problems.

I checked out Butch's website, and it is impressive! My wife wouldn't stand for something similar in my case

but I will have some sort of seperate tank for quarantine/hospital.

E

 

[Grandis]

esmithiii:

"So you are saying that you never add anything to your tanks without A) medicating it or B) qarantining it for at least a month..."

Yes, that's correct, and we shouldn't make a big deal out of it. This should be considered more than normal practice.

"...How many tanks do you have for this? You even quarentine liverock?"

We need lots of tanks if we can't control ourselves to buy anything that comes across us. Actually we don't need tanks, just use containers that are suitable for saltwater. Like those Rubermaid type. I use buckets a lot too. And... I don't buy every single fish that come across me.
Yes, you should quarantine everything that comes from fish store's waters! definitely.

See yah,
Grandis

 

[Terry B]

Matt,
You quoted Bassleer “(long list of stressors) In other words, many factors can contribute to the reduced resistance of the fish which makes them more susceptible to parasites such as Cryptocaryon irritans which are almost always present in aquarium water."


True some parasites are almost always present in an aquarium, but this does not apply to Cryptocaryon. I just think Bassleer worded this in a fuzzy way. The statement is true but not specifically of ich.

“Cryptocaryon is always latent in an aquarium (and on fish)." From Baensch.
Please give me the page number for this because I did not find it in the disease section. I am not criticizing Baensch, but nobody is an expert in every aspect of marine aquariums. IMO, he is not one that I consider to be an aquatic medicine specialist.


"It's important to remember that many parasites are often present in wild caught specimens. If a healthy, stable environment deteriorates, dissolution of immunity follows, and a latent infection may become pathogenic." By Fenner.

Notice Fenner did not mention Cryptocaryon here? His statement is absolutely true, some parasites are present. These are facultative parasites and ich does not fit into that category. Notice also that he used the word “often” not always or even usually.

Stress is a factor with an ich infection only when the parasite is in the system. Perfectly heathly fish can become infected with ich when a weaker or less resistant fish shares the same aquarium. The parasite can multiply using the weakest host to the point of overtaking the more resistant fish.
Three factors play a part: the health of the fish, quality of the environment and population of the parasites.

Dave,
No tomonts do not go dormant but there can be a variance in the time period they take to hatch. The biggest factor influencing the time period is water temperature. 30 days is usually a long enough “fallow” period. If you want to be extra careful go 6 weeks.

esmithiii

One good way to eliminate ich from the fish is to quarantine all new fish for three weeks in hyposalinity therapy. The specific gravity for this is 1.009. Don’t do this with sharks, rays, invert, live rock or live sand.
The vast majority of infections are caused by a failure to properly quarantine fish. If you quarantine all fish properly then you may never have to treat the fish that live in your display. People who properly quarantine rarely have an outbreak in their tank.
If you quarantine your fish you probably won’t have a problem. If you quarantine inverts and rock you eliminate the minority of infections. BTW, tomonts can attach to rock or even the shell of a shrimp. Any hard surface will do, but I have not heard of ich attaching to mucus on an invert.

I still maintain that in the majority of cases that if ich is present in a system it will multiply and infect all the fish if left unchecked. Scientific trials strongly indicate this. Long term latent infections are possible and they do happen, but they are the exception rather than the rule.
I quarantine my fish for a minimum of three weeks. In the past I only observed until I saw indicators of infection. After all these years I rarely misjudged whether or not they were infected just by observing them in quarantine. However, I don’t recommend doing it this way unless you have a lot of experience. Now, I recommend quarantining all new fish in hyposalinity. It helps fish to recover from the stress of capture and transport, saves metabolic energy that normally would be applied to osmoregulation so it can be used for digestion, healing, etc., gets the fish eating faster and relieves them of more than one type of parasite without drugs. To top it off it is surprisingly low stress (if any stress at all).
Thanks to everyone, because this has turned out to be a great thread.
Terry B

 

[naesco]

Interesting discussion.
I notice you have both a Q and hospital tank.
Instead of using medications like copper in the hospital tank have any of you tried using garlic extract to prevent ich?
I have have not had a problem with the introduction of ich since I started doing this.

 

[esmithiii]

Thanks to all for the information.

Terry- not to be a jerk, but why did you start this thread if you already knew the answers?

Last question:

I have set up my 180, and plan on transfering the livestock, live rock and some of the sand to the 180. All my fish seem very healthy and have been in the tank at least 6 months, some over a year. I have two damsels in the 180 now and both seem also very healthy. Should I quarantine/treat my existing fish before transfering them over? What about the liverock, inverts and sand?

E

 

[Terry B]

I do have the same thoughts about garlic as a treatment. I have looked into quite a bit and even wrote an upcoming article for Aquarium Fish magazine on the subject. I interviewed the person that made this method popular. What I found is that they do not depend on garlic when dealing with a full blown or heavy infection. They use hyposalinity.
Garlic does not work as effectively as copper or hyposalinity. I to suspect that it does not completely get rid of the infection. Garlic seems to help in some cases and not in others. Copper or hypsalinity get very consistent positive effects when administered correctly.
BTW, I do not hold to the theory that garlic boosts immune function. I beleive it works as a repellent, being somehow distasteful to the parasite. I think another possibility is that the odor confuses the parasite because it depends somewhat on its sense of smell and taste to locate a suitable host.
Oh and you should read my responses a couple of posts back to the quotes that were given. I looked them up and they do not indicate that the authors believe ich is always present. The only quote I was not able to find was by Baensch. I have his book but didn't find what was quoted in it. I asked for a specific page so I could look it up, but it wasn't in the disease section about ich.
Terry B

 

[Terry B]

Consider all your current stock to be quarantined already after six months. I would be much more concerned that the two damsels already in the 180 might be carrying something.
I started the thread because I saw several posts recently making statements like ich is in all tanks. I thought a good discussion on the subject would clear things up. Ich is not present in all aquariums, it can be eliminated, but there are cases of latent or low level infections in untreated tanks that contain fish which have previously been exposed. It doesn't always show itself right away,but most of the time it does.
Terry B

 

[jmeader]

Actually, Terry's question never was answered. The only one who even came close to answering it was Matt, with his quotes. I have my own theory about his question, but it is just a theory. I also suspect that Terry already harbors the same or similiar theory.
I've been wanting to experiment with garlic to see if it just reduces an ich outbreak to a low level infection or eliminates it completely. I've only heard about garlic in the last year and have not seen a case of ich in 3 or 4 years. I don't buy a lot of new fish.
Esmithii. To treat or not to treat, that is up to you based on how much troube the ich gives you or might give you. Personally, I'd take steps to eliminate any known problem and be done with it. Ich is not generally a very serious problem. A Q tank will save the rest of your livestock from far worse problems than ich.