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monkeyboy

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I talked to a collector who distributes his own livestock today for a while about this industry. Now, hopefully it will make the people that are constantly looking for the cheapest fish/coral/inverts on the internet think twice before choosing price before quality (or even just price period). This really makes sense so heres what he told me. The problem with the industry today is that everone sells wild caught livestock really cheap and with a large turnover. Now, since there is such a large turnover because of the really low prices more and more critters have to be collected to keep up with the new demand. This collector told me he doesn't sell his stuff cheap and this makes sense (to me anyways) because since the prices are higher there is less of a turnover with the same amount of money made but the collector has to collect less critters from the reef, which is always a good thing (talk about a run on sentence and a half). Thus overcollecting is halted. Although people will complain, and do, about the higher prices they take that extra step to learn more about the critter they would like to keep to protect their investment. IME the average customer that enters our store will just ask to buy a coral for 20 bucks even if their system is less than adequate but if that same piece was 60 dollars they wouldn't buy it unless their system was perfect for it. Are you seeing what i'm getting at?

Higher prices = less collecting + reefkeepers that know what they're buying before they do.

Now, this isn't to say that charging 50 bucks for a peppermint shrimp is the right thing to do to prevent overcollecting and make sure that people are more conscientious about keeping them. But the average reef keeper would say "hey, i don't want to pay higher prices, i just want my $5 yellow tang!", but think of it in terms of the reefs and to some extent keeping the lfs's alive.

Flame me if you wish, although some of the above blurb is probably un-understandable and i'll try make some sense of it later.

But bottom line, does this make sense? Would higher prices across the board for wild collected livestock benefit the reefkeeping hobby in general, producing more conscientious (with slightly lighter wallets) reefkeepers, while keeping LFS's in business as well as the smaller collectors?

I'm going out on a limb here, and i'll have more to say.
 
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Anonymous

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I agree - there's a similar situation regarding other pets. Take birds vs. dogs, for instance. Most birds are relatively highly-priced, so only people serious about caring for a bird, (or a possibly neglectful rich person), would bother shelling out hundreds of dollars for said bird. However, one can obtain dogs for free, and I'm at least under the impression that mistreatment & neglect of dogs is pretty widespread.

If certain pets are highly priced, only those either serious about caring for the pets, rich folks, or those very foolish with their money will buy them.
 

KenH

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I also agree with the basic premise in that it would allow captive propagated specimens to better compete in the marketplace. The current price structure is not conducive to encouraging captive propagation for most marine specimens.

--- Ken
 

SPC

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Monkeyboy, I agree, I have always believed that marine animals are too cheap. I still think it comes down to paying the people who do the actual collecting more money. They are the ones who need to see the value of the coral reef, and therefore would protect it.
Steve
 

monkeyboy

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Good point KenH, i didn't even think about the impact cheap pricing has on the captive propagation efforts.

Kind of makes you think twice about 9 for 99.
 

tomocean

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It sounds good in theory, but in practice it leaves the door open for many greedy, unethical business owners to keep on jacking up prices in the name of doing what's good for the environment. And it doesn't take into account the fact that some rich, ignorant person can go in and buy the "pretty fish" or "colorful plant things (i.e. coral)" irregardless of the price. Meanwhile, the well-meaning, educated, but fund challenged aquarist is turned away from the hobby due to the cost.
No...I don't think it is an answer. Aquaculture, education, and conscientious store owners seem like better answers to me.
 
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Anonymous

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Hey, I agree completely here. I think economics and environmental repurcussions is an excellent and intriguing topic.

Please, please, please, if you would like to know more, take the time to read my thoughts on what might help to increase conservation using the reef market as a tool.

Simply follow this link then click on the Paper Title.

Also, email me and let me know your thoughts, or discuss here. Criticism is welcome, just no flames please.

Conserving Coral Reefs with Market Forces
 

chinese101

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I personally knows of two rich guys who don't care about how much they pay for coral or fish as long as they like it. They visit lfs and wholesalers every week to replace the stock they lost. Have no sense of what the fish and coral needs, but man, do their tank look good. professionally manintance every week.

As a poor reefer, 20 bucks is very expensive for me. I do a lot of research before buying a coral and I do my best to keep them happy. I use DTs. drip kalk.... which my rich friends don't even know. I told them what to do, they laughted. If their corals and fish don't die, they can't have the fun of getting new ones.

Raising price on corals and fish are like raising price on gas. Yeah, demand will drop, because poor people like me will not be able to afford it. As for the rich guys, they keep driving their SUVs and Italian sportscars. You think they care?

Gets me angry everytime I go visit their tank. Guess, I shouldn't be; 'cause they gives me a lot of used equipments and dying coral which I nursed back to life.

Just my opinion.

Lee
 

davelin315

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I would have to disagree with that train of thought, especially with what Ken added to you original idea. The people who you say are concerned about the welfare of the reef (for example, your collector) would go out of business due to propagation and captive breeding efforts. If we encouraged all specimens that are carried to be captive bred, then there would be no market for wild caught fish at all. I personally find that captive bred pieces of coral are better suited to my abilities, and the wild caught specimens often are damaged and will change color more readily in my tank. I also find that these pieces are generally more expensive. If you look around the internet and at reputable stores, the ones that have the better prices are the ones that propagate their own corals. The best place I have been to locally does not sell coral heads for the most part, as these are the life of his business. He frags everything, and so it has gone from an initial wild caught specimen to being fragged multiple times, resulting in captive bred corals. Of course, once in a while, a wild specimen comes in to supplement or add to his collection, but the propagation is taking place in his store, the end result of which will eventually be that the collector loses out completely. This obviously would lead to a better ecosystem if no one collected, but I don't think that's ever going to happen. As far as captive bred fish, I find that the most common captive bred fish are the clowns, and they usually don't look as good as wild caught clowns to me. As far as other captive bred species, such as the pseudochromis species, the price on these fish is not lower by any means due to some (as I view it) unscrupulous vendors, whether they be the retailer or the breeder. When I see a captive bred pseudochromis for $100 at one store and then a wild caught pseudochromis at another for $35, I'm going to buy the wild caught fish. In an ideal world, your theory would work, but let's face it, it's not an ideal world, and money doesn't grow on trees. A lot of the awareness of the plight of the reefs comes from reefers and the growing number of marine aquarists. If the hobby became cost prohibitive, I think awareness would drop. Also, a lot of the problem is not based on collection for the marine hobby, a lot of it is based on tourism (bleached corals, shells, etc.) and modernized fishing methods (did you know that most of the ornamental fish we buy for our tanks are common food items in many tropical countries? example is when I went to Tahiti and went to the fish market - row upon row of triggers, tangs, angels, parrots, wrasses, you name it, they were there for sale, and you could buy 10 pounds of fish for less than a dollar, unfortunately, they were all dead and on ice) and agricultural methods contributing to the decline of the marine ecosystem (now that's a run-on to rival yours!).

Unfortunately, you have a good idea behind your justification, but I don't know anyone who would go out and spend more money when they didn't have to, and the idea of a hobby is to make it accessible to everyone, otherwise, it wouldn't be a hobby and the only ones with tanks would be stupid millionaires (I'd like to be a stupid millionaire myself, a little bitter envy) and scientists.
 

chinese101

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Last trip to Hong Kong, my rich friend treated my dinner and he ordered a big 20 inch parrot fish. I costed around US80 cooked (how much would it cost at our lfs, i wonder). It tasted great though.
 

davelin315

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I didn't try any of the fish on my trip, I couldn't bring myself to do it (although I was very very very curious about how that orange shoulder tang tasted, looked very plump and juicy, but I avoided it, as Tahitian cooking is possibly the worst I have had anywhere in the world, especially their fresh seafood unless an American was cooking it).
 

davelin315

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By the way, Monkeyboy, wanna buy some xenia, colt and leather coral frags? Only $200 each frag! They're expensive but it'll save the reefs!
icon_biggrin.gif
 

Mouse

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Personally i would like to see tighter regulation regarding the supply of corals and inverts to retail outlets. Some LFS's make me sick, and the fact that there making money from it really gets my goat.
 

monkeyboy

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davelin, how many of those frags ya got? I'll take 'um all!

Of course no theory is perfect, and this of course would never happen on a large basis. Although i still believe that it's a great way to make aquarists more aware of what they're taking care of and reduce reef collecting. But like i said, it ain't perfect, it alienates the reefers that may not have a large reef budget and doens't even bother the extremely rich ignorant "gimme that purple thing" kind of people.

Higher prices on wild caught livestock would be beneficial to the captive bred industry, and thats great. Even if it was applied by many wholesalers there will always be cheap corals somewhere, and IMO and IME an average piece of "standard" (like a medium leather, stony, or gorgonian) $20 bucks is pretty cheap.
 

chinese101

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In order to make a better world, why is it always the poor people that has to suffer? sigh!

Going with your logic, in order to get people to buy electric cars and save the earth from pollution, we should raise price of gasoline to 20 bucks a gallon. Those who benefits will be the oil corps and uncle sam. Guess who suffers?

You think by rasising the price of wild caught spieces, the collectors will get a penny more? I really doubt it.

lee
 

beemert

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Going with your logic, in order to get people to buy electric cars and save the earth from pollution, we should raise price of gasoline to 20 bucks a gallon.
actually this is what did happen and supports the main idea of this thread that economics will direct the outcome.
look back at the 70's. gas prices soared and all of the sudden auto makers found a way to make more fuel efficient cars. prior to this, there was no reason to build a car that got 20+ mpg. now, fuel efficiency is posted on the window of every new auto.
i am not one for regulation unless it effects many (read this as i don't promote regulation if it only protects me from myself) but with the declining health of the natural reefs, economics may be the only way to hold off the eventual demise. wild caught should cost more. tax the crap out of 'em. works for other industries out of control. you would not be driving a car today that was fuel efficient if the price of gas was $0.25/gal.
just my $0.02
bruce
 

esmithiii

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The gas thing has not been all that successful. Average MPG has maybe doubled in the last 30 years. That is not that much of an improvement over 30 years. Total global petroleum consumption is 60+ times what it was in the 70's.

Tarifs don't work that well to adjust behaviours like you might expect. Take protective tarifs for example. Ask Argentines how well they work for spurring local industry. In Argentina, the import tarrifs on a car are 100% of the value of the car. The effect: Want a 2000 Ford Falcon (the same one that my dad had as his 1st car (it was 10 years old then) in the early 60's)? They make them using the old tooling in factories in Argentina. Crappy cars cost a butt-load there, and few people can afford them.

My point: raising prices on collected specimines would probably only hurt the hobby and the awareness that goes with it, and would probably not affect the environment in the ways you might expect.

E
 

Mabu

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I like the bird analogy. But still, most consumers will still go for the "cheapest" prices (see: Wal-Mart) and high prices for stuff will only drive less-qualified people into the industry and everyone and their dog will now be harvesting stuff to make good money.

Besides, I don't think any of this stuff is inexpensive by any means.

I do like the idea however, of certain types of livestock only being able to be carried by dealers who have been "certified" in one form or another, and subject to revokation of this license if they are irresponsible in selling livestock to unqualified people. That would probably drive prices up anyway.
 

Gatortailale1

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I would be willing to pay a little extra if LFS would market and sell more captive raised fish and corals. (Just as long as they don't get greedy and sell wild stuff as captive and charge more)

Most if not all of us know captive raised stuff has a better survival rate.

my 2 cents worth
 

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