Out of 1000 fish sold retail......900 will die within the first year? Now lets say we limit those 1000 fish to only "hardy types" like groupers and damsels? What fish have a better survival rate then those? Well, if we were to follow the life of those fish after they are sold to the hobbists, we would find that one : most will still die within weeks in over fed "death"tanks,"Hardy" or not.... the lucky thirty percent that might make it past eight weeks are soon too big {Groupers} or "not exiting enough" {Damsels} And what we have left are unwanted fish with owners that are looking for new interesting fishes {butterflies?} to replace the Boring {"Hardy"}ones? If we cut in half the types of fish taken from the reef, this will mean having to double the numbers taken of hardy species.twice as many Groupers ,Damsels, Triggers etc.....Its the difficult, odd fish, that on one hand keep us from depleting the supplies of the limited variety of hardy types and on the other hand is not learning how to keep seemingly impossible fish and corals is WHAT this Reef Hobby is ALL about! Yes? No? Since not long ago almost ALL marine corals and most fish were deemed imposible to keep, lets say we use the past as our starting point to decide what to ban and what not ?{All Corals and most fish} Silly? As silly as it would have been then, twenty years ago to ban and not waiting until now to conclude what to ban? How bout we Again wait for future strides in Marine husbandry to determine what is possible and what is not?
A lesson from the past on "Banning"
- Thread starter Cappuccino Bay Aquarium
- Start date
I see the LFS industry can't take the heat in the Industry forum.
If I understand this post, he is saying that if we ban the import of impossible to keep butterflyfish, we will buy damsels instead so why not buy buttrflyfish even though we know they will die within weeks because they cannot be kept.
This logic shows that unless we as reefers put pressure on the industry to mend their ways, we will be without a hobby and left with trading brown frags with eachother.
Please take 30 seconds and go to the industry forum to register your protest against the importation of impossible to keep species.
Thank you
If I understand this post, he is saying that if we ban the import of impossible to keep butterflyfish, we will buy damsels instead so why not buy buttrflyfish even though we know they will die within weeks because they cannot be kept.
This logic shows that unless we as reefers put pressure on the industry to mend their ways, we will be without a hobby and left with trading brown frags with eachother.
Please take 30 seconds and go to the industry forum to register your protest against the importation of impossible to keep species.
Thank you
Perhaps that IS what Im saying? Or might it be that"The reality of this Hobby" To any Outsider {Government}is that, Even at best Our hardiest pets have a survival rate that is very poor? Maybe not in your tank, Maybe not in most of the 6000 members on this Boards Tanks. But the Vast number of {average} hobbists out there are consuming a Large number of fishes ,Whether those fish are from a "hardy " group or "Difficult" its the 980 out of 1000{Groupers} or 999 out of 1000 {Butterflies}this is not going to impress A Governmental body which would oversea such a ban? Some on this board seem the feel that a 90 percent death rate is somehow "Hardy"? Lets Be careful, our blindness to the reality this hobby may lead an outsider to view all of us blinded from within the Hobby ......
Newreefman
It is an important issue that is why you read about it often.
IMO that is why the Industry forum was created and thus the opportunity to voice your opinion in that forum.
The intent is to draw up a list of 'impossible to keep coral and fish', present it to MAC so that they would enact restrictions on the import of those species.
Alternatively, the government could do it.
Sounds pretty important to me.
Thank you
It is an important issue that is why you read about it often.
IMO that is why the Industry forum was created and thus the opportunity to voice your opinion in that forum.
The intent is to draw up a list of 'impossible to keep coral and fish', present it to MAC so that they would enact restrictions on the import of those species.
Alternatively, the government could do it.
Sounds pretty important to me.
Thank you
The way I see it if the responsible hobbiest dosen't even try to make a difference, then what chance does this hobby have for survival? We can sit around and think up excusses why this or that isn't 100%, or we can TRY and do something to make a difference. All problems can be solved when there is a goal one is trying to reach. NO problem was ever solved by looking for excusses to not make it work.
Ernie, you are an Industrial Engineer, how far do you think a company would progress if they listened to all the people who thought "it" wouldn't work.
I will say this again, we can stand by and watch as the governement takes over, or we can try and make a difference.
Steve
Ernie, you are an Industrial Engineer, how far do you think a company would progress if they listened to all the people who thought "it" wouldn't work.
I will say this again, we can stand by and watch as the governement takes over, or we can try and make a difference.
Steve
This logic is nonsense. I have a very small incoming DOA rate by choosing proper species.. and by education, I know my "average" customers arne't killing 90% of what I sell them in a years time.. I know this because I talk to them. There are certainly people that do, but we generally weed them out before long... the buy it and kill it and replace it crowd gets tired of me lecturing them.
This is a much different issue ,I have brought this up on the main board because the idea that if WE propose a list of difficult fish to ban the collection of : You will also expose the fact that of the few remaining hardy types (nine out of ten die} this we call "hardy"? The Government is going to see the data ,data we as a hobby think 1% survival is not exceptable yet 10% IS "Hardy" The TRUTH is not pretty!If you are tring to ban all collection because it hurts the reef then fine , I respect that. I agree banning ALL collection will help the reefs.but Sophomoric atempts at Saving ten Buterflies at the expense of ten replacment Groupers, will help the Butterflies yes, but whipe out the Groupers? The reef gains what? With more butterflies and no Groupers? Yes , if all fish were now captive raised that woud be great! But banning difficult species will assure that we will never learn why those are difficult? Were not Clownfish thought difficult not long ago? Had we banned Clownfish years ago , today we would NOT have them as Captive raised today...?Be carefull what you wish for!
Are you sure "YOU CAN HANDLE THE TRUTH" There are many ways of estimating the survival rates, Lucky for this Hobby there are not exact numbers? Take the number of tanks sold in the last ten years and divde that buy the number of fish and corals sold during that same time is one way .But like I said, I dont want the Feds to Have Data like that, this is why Im asking you all not to create such data?Lets
I still think you are way off base.. as in my situation, I have never carried those fish.. and it doesn't put more pressure on the "hardy" species, because my customers aren't killing and replacing them.. like they do with the "unhardy" fish. I actually have a LOT of customers that have full tanks and are on maintenance mode only.. as should all quality LFS's.. and if that isn't the case, then that LFS sucks and needs to find a new line of work... period.
Groupers aren't a good example either.. because alot of them shouldn't be in the average aquaria either.
Groupers aren't a good example either.. because alot of them shouldn't be in the average aquaria either.
Jeremy, lets look at it this way, if 100,000 fish are sold each month, and now you ban 50,000 of those 100,000 because half are not "hardy", the market will still want 100,000 fish following the ban . This will now leed to doubling the remaining {not banned species}? Thats the same as doubling the number of Hobbists in America overnite, with reguards to the number of "hardy" fish consumed? Thats not good! or even possible judging by the numbers of "hardy" fish..... Mary you know my numbers are close, and because you do ,I dont see how you expect the Feds to think 99%deaths is wrong but 80% deaths are "Hardy" Your attempting to placate or befriend a "TIGER"{Feds} with a tidbit of meat,{"lets show we care and self- ban some things"} But you may lose your arm as well? The collecters fetch these items because they are pletiful out on the reef, your want list of hardy species is often substituted because the hardy items are low in numbers? Now you want to DOUBLE the demands on those remaining low numbered hardy species? What is the main "killer" Of captive fish? Its the Hobbists, If from the hardy list we still kill most of those fish we deem fit for our tanks , then its not the fishs' fault, its the tanks caretaker... Lets do what we as a hobby have been doing for the last twenty years ,work on teaching and learning better husbandry for our pets. Thats the ONLY solution to this hobbies'woes which will curb the death rate of even hardy fish or rather the number of fish the average hobbists goes through a year.
Cap,
The point I'm making that you aren't paying attention to is this:
In your example the hobby demands 100k fish. However, if the people were only buying "hardy" fish, in reality, the continuted demand would be much less, because they aren't killing butterflies etc. continuously and replacing them continuously.. therefore the total consumption of fish actually DROPS. I know this is how it works.. because I've worked in 5 LFS's, the 5th one being my own, and I've seen it from the crappy LFS to the good... and I know pretty well what peoples buying habits are. For your 90% of all fish die #'s, you are lumping in all the rotten LFS's, all the petcos, etc that sell anyone anything. This is the last I'm going to post to this thread.. it's pretty obvious where you stand, and where I stand.. and I don't think either of us is going to be swayed by the others opinion. And as I've posted before.. it doesn't matter to me if there is a limited species ban as I don't sell "those fish" anyways.
The point I'm making that you aren't paying attention to is this:
In your example the hobby demands 100k fish. However, if the people were only buying "hardy" fish, in reality, the continuted demand would be much less, because they aren't killing butterflies etc. continuously and replacing them continuously.. therefore the total consumption of fish actually DROPS. I know this is how it works.. because I've worked in 5 LFS's, the 5th one being my own, and I've seen it from the crappy LFS to the good... and I know pretty well what peoples buying habits are. For your 90% of all fish die #'s, you are lumping in all the rotten LFS's, all the petcos, etc that sell anyone anything. This is the last I'm going to post to this thread.. it's pretty obvious where you stand, and where I stand.. and I don't think either of us is going to be swayed by the others opinion. And as I've posted before.. it doesn't matter to me if there is a limited species ban as I don't sell "those fish" anyways.
Yes, you are doing exactly what needs to be done by running your LFS in the way you are....And that is how I feel as well. I will not sell Butterflies, sharks or orange spot file fish etc. in my store..... And this is how all store owners need to behave. But alas this is not reality. Petco is ....
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