Any quiet surge devices yet?

[agiacosa]

Hi,

Anyone using a surge device that is a) in the same room as the display tank and b) quiet? I do know about the silent surge device made by the now defunct company and the problems related to it.

Thank you.

Art

 

[MILPIL Reef]

Here is a link to a new surger device that is available now
www.3iQVentures.com

 

[LFS42]

I thought the point of a surge was to have the water "surge" and make noise :?
So a quite surge device would be called a powerhead, wouldn't it?

 

[agiacosa]

Thanks for your input.

I meant a surge device like the Carlson, Reverse Carlson, or Borneman. The 3iQ device merely switches back and forth.

As for noise, it is a necessary evil so far with surge devices unless you are going for that au-natural thing.

I am designing a new filter that will incorporate a refugium, algal turf scrubber and surge. Ambitious? Yes. However, I think relatively simple.

Pump flows water out of aquarium to refugium section located behind and above aquarium. Refugium overflows into ATS section. I am trying to find a way to avoid the dump bucket scenario. A surge device that rises water level and then decreases it is ideal for growing turf and simulates the wet/dry cycle of a bucket system.

All in all, different than a powerhead.

 

[wombat1]

I've built several of both, and IMO, the Borneman device is much quieter. It never sucks up air the way the Carlson device does. The costs for both are about the same. The only disadvantages to the Borneman device are that since it has moving parts it sometimes gets stuck, and it cannot be scaled up if you wanted to use it on an enormous tank.

 

[agiacosa]

Thanks.

Sorry, I'm a lawyer. Can you describe what you mean by quieter?

Have you ever considered making the Borneman into an algal turf scrubber?

Thanks.

P.S. Don't hold the lawyer thing against me.

 

[King Jason]

As defined in Webster’s dictionary:

qui·et ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kwt)
adj. qui·et·er, qui·et·est

-Making little or no noise: quiet neighbors; a quiet engine.
-Free of loud noise; hushed: a quiet street.
-Calm and unmoving; still: a quiet lake.
-Free of turmoil and agitation; untroubled. See Synonyms at still1.
-Restful; soothing: a quiet afternoon nap; a quiet tune on the flute.
-Tranquil; serene: a quiet place in the country.
-Not showy or garish; subdued: a room decorated in quiet colors.
-Restrained in style; understated: a quiet strength; a quiet life.

Lawyers...always making life difficult...heh :wink:

 

[LFS42]

Sorry,

I havn't heard about any of those systems, could anyone point me in the rigth direction.

However how about this:
We run a 500 gal surge tank on a 3000 tide pool.
The surge tank has a pipe through to top, that has an elbow and another pipe going down to about 3" from the bottom.
A pump fills the tank up and when the water gets above the top pipe, it drains out.
Now, I sure you've already seen this, it's very similar to the tetra-tech filters.
I'm sure you could baffle it somewhere to quiet it down.
I'll try to attach a pic,

 

[agiacosa]

I think your diagram is what is known as the Carlson system that relies on a siphon to empty the surge chamber. I understand, but have no direct knowledge, that it creates bubbles and is noisy. ALso, if siphon breaks...oh oh.

Thanks for the definition. Now I need wombat to confirm that that is what he meant. ;-)

Art

 

[LFS42]

Ther is no problem if it breaks siphon.
The water just stays at the bulkhead level over just a bit higher.
The bubles? I can't say, We have it cascade down a 12' waterfall.
Noise? I'm sure it can be quieted down. The one we run is 500 gal so it's hard to say how loud it realy is.
You can try it out on a small scale in a 5 gal bucket.
Just to see if it'll work.

 

[King Jason]

Wow...that is a pretty simple design. I would assume it slurps when the water is all siphoned out of the bucket.

 

[LFS42]

Yes, it slurps, but like I said.
i'm sure you quiet it down with drill some holes in the drain pipe about 1" above the bottom so the siphon stops before it gets all the way down or baffle the inside or make the tube smaller or something?

 

[King Jason]

Very true...I may have to try this in my backyard for the fun of it.

 

[LFS42]

I'd try it in the bathtub too.
With a directional outlet.

 

[agiacosa]

Do a search for Carlson surge devices and you'll find plenty of designs for this type of system. Most people complained about the slurping sound and the risk that it would overflow.

 

[King Jason]

I don't think I will actually use one, but I do want to check it out and see how it sounds and how reliable it is. I don't know how it would overflow. If you put the hole low enough it should always drain. The only way I could see it overflowing is if the tube gets clogged.

 

[wombat1]

I don't see how the diagram drawn would create a surge. It looks like it would siphon continuously a mixture of water and air. The Carlson device is pretty much the same except, as mentioned, with a small hole an inch or so above the bottom of the pipe. It doesn't break the siphon, though. Air is sucked in through that hole along with all the water until the water level drains to the bottom of the pipe. At that point, so much air is being drawn in that the siphon breaks. The bucket then fills up again, until the height of the water forces all the air out of the pipe and the siphon starts. It won't overflow as long as you have a large enough pipe and the outlet is not too deep in the display tank. Some people cut the bottom of the inlet pipe at an angle, use more than one hole, etc, etc. There is a lot of tinkering to get it to work right, but once you do it continues to work flawlessly. The bucket should be covered to reduce algae growth and clogging inside the container. A ton more info can be found by Dr. Carlson himself if you search on the net for "carlson surge device" or "DIY surge maker".

The Borneman device is just a toilet flush valve to achieve the same effect. Since it has moving parts, sometimes they get stuck. I check them every day on my tank, and they get stuck about once a week or so. It's not the end of the world b/c water is still flowing, just not in a surging pattern. They are much quieter b/c air isn't sucked into the pipe to cause that slurping sound. Another advantage is that a ton of tiny little bubbles aren't produced. HTH, Matt

 

[Anonymous]

Another disadvantage to the Carlson is that unless you can reliably break the siphon, only bubbles are slurped and the unit "short cycles", and never stops siphoning (this side effect isn't really noticeable until after the first 6 - 12 months of operation). If the siphon doesn't prime then 8O ... it isn't pretty.

 

[esmithiii]

Here is a plan for my refugium/surge for my planned grow-out tank that my wife doesn't yet know is going in my garage this summer:

(A) is the line from the tank where a small powerhead will pump water up to the device.
(B) is the refugium section
(C) is the main surge tank section
(D) is the emergency overflow pipe which will drain to the main tank in the case that the siphon faiuls to prime
(E) is the siphon line to the main tank

What do you think?

Ernie

 

[LFS42]

I won't tell her if you don't tell mine about the sump I'm moving to the basement. :wink: :roll:


Look like it'll work like a charm.
The key to getting the surge and not a constant drain is to have a big siphon line that can drain much faster than the pump can fill.