250 Mogul
- Thread starter Lynch1j21
- Start date
I recommend you contact PFO and ask them directly. You can also ask for the ANSI number they use for their "HQI" ballasts and report it back here; I may be able to determine whether the ballast can operate SE probe-start bulbs.
My guess (and only guess at this time) is that the ballast can drive SE bulbs just fine.
My guess (and only guess at this time) is that the ballast can drive SE bulbs just fine.
The ballast must be matched to the type of bulb you are running.
It is impossible to run a HQI bulb on a standard MH balast and similarly it is impossible to run a standard MH bulb on a HQI ballast.
You need to choose the type of bulb you want to run first and then buy the appropriate ballast.
It is impossible to run a HQI bulb on a standard MH balast and similarly it is impossible to run a standard MH bulb on a HQI ballast.
You need to choose the type of bulb you want to run first and then buy the appropriate ballast.
AnotherGoldenTeapot":o2pm5f66 said:
This statement isn't true. HQI is a trademark of Osram Sylvania, and isn't really a technology (contrary to reefkeeping misinformation). Some SE and DE/"HQI" bulbs can be driven by either HPS or Pulse Start Ballasts. That's why I'd like to know exactly what type of ballast PFO is using for their "HQI" systems. I'm guessing they're nothing but pulse-start ballasts, which can operate most mogul/medium based bulbs just fine. In fact, they make most European bulbs (e.g. Ushio) perform better.
The PFO HQI Ballast will fire the higher kelvin single ended bulbs brighter and whiter then on a standard PFO MH ballast. I have a dual 250 watt PFO HQI running two USHIO Single ended 10k bulbs, and I am very pleased with the results. The bulbs fired up right away, and the color is a crisp white.
HTH,
Dragon_Wrasse
HTH,
Dragon_Wrasse
Marco,
It's my speculation that most "HQI" ballasts are either pulse-start or HPS ballasts. Of the two, I'd speculate that most are indeed pulse start ballasts, but it needs reminding that this is only my guess. I am confident that most European bulbs marketed in the aquarium industry operate well (or better) with pulse-start technology.
FYI, the main difference between pulse start and probe start ("standard") metal halides is that the former uses an ignitor to apply a proper starting voltage to form a clean arc when fired up, while the latter uses a starting electrode (aka probe) to spark and "build up" a suitable arc. This is the very reason why pulse start ballasts fire up faster and more "steady" then standard ballasts (e.g. double ended "HQI" bulbs). After start-up, they perform similiarly (pulse start operates at a slightly lower open circuit voltage and current crest factor). All bulbs, including probe start bulbs, can techinically be operated with pulse start ballasts, but depending on how the starting electrode was designed (on probe start bulbs), the ignitor may cause stress on the starting electrode.* Most Europeans bulbs seem to handle the additional stress well (and ultimately burn significantly brighter). On the other hand, pulse start bulbs can't be fired up with non-pulse start ballasts.
*In my opinion, this isn't too significant an issue since we reefkeepers discard our bulbs LONG before their usable life for the sake of maintaining ideal spectrum.
Some bulbs (to be honest, I'm not familiar with which exactly) will reportedly operate fine with HPS ballasts. I've heard second-hand reports that a lot of Europeans are using HPS ballasts to drive their European bulbs, but I haven't confirmed this information and would take it with a grain of salt. Because I am not familiar with HPS, I am not confident in making any suggestions pertaining to this technology.
Dragon,
Thanks for sharing your experience. Per experiences shared and Sanjay's anaylsis, 10KK Euro bulbs perform better on "HQI" ballasts then standard ballasts.
It's my speculation that most "HQI" ballasts are either pulse-start or HPS ballasts. Of the two, I'd speculate that most are indeed pulse start ballasts, but it needs reminding that this is only my guess. I am confident that most European bulbs marketed in the aquarium industry operate well (or better) with pulse-start technology.
FYI, the main difference between pulse start and probe start ("standard") metal halides is that the former uses an ignitor to apply a proper starting voltage to form a clean arc when fired up, while the latter uses a starting electrode (aka probe) to spark and "build up" a suitable arc. This is the very reason why pulse start ballasts fire up faster and more "steady" then standard ballasts (e.g. double ended "HQI" bulbs). After start-up, they perform similiarly (pulse start operates at a slightly lower open circuit voltage and current crest factor). All bulbs, including probe start bulbs, can techinically be operated with pulse start ballasts, but depending on how the starting electrode was designed (on probe start bulbs), the ignitor may cause stress on the starting electrode.* Most Europeans bulbs seem to handle the additional stress well (and ultimately burn significantly brighter). On the other hand, pulse start bulbs can't be fired up with non-pulse start ballasts.
*In my opinion, this isn't too significant an issue since we reefkeepers discard our bulbs LONG before their usable life for the sake of maintaining ideal spectrum.
Some bulbs (to be honest, I'm not familiar with which exactly) will reportedly operate fine with HPS ballasts. I've heard second-hand reports that a lot of Europeans are using HPS ballasts to drive their European bulbs, but I haven't confirmed this information and would take it with a grain of salt. Because I am not familiar with HPS, I am not confident in making any suggestions pertaining to this technology.
Dragon,
Thanks for sharing your experience. Per experiences shared and Sanjay's anaylsis, 10KK Euro bulbs perform better on "HQI" ballasts then standard ballasts.
Ok,
After talking things over with a few people in the industry, here's the story that I'm sticking to (and it's mildly confusing):
HPS ballasts can be used to drive pulse start bulbs. Such pulse-start bulbs - bulbs that don't have a built in starting probe - include the true HQI bulb by Osram, which needs an ignitor to fire. HPS ballasts and pulse-start MH ballasts both offer the necessary ignitor to fire this type of bulb.
Likewise, DE bulbs need a ignitor to fire. If you look at a DE bulb, there's clearly no starting probe; it's a very simple, unfettered design. To fire the bulb, enough voltage must be applied at start up, and that's why an ignitor is necessary for double ended bulbs.
As for SE Ushios, they have starting probes and so can fire up if driven by standard MH ballasts. However, numerous reports (including Sanjay's ballast comparision of the PFO "HQI" which I presume is a pulse start ballast) suggests that Ushios perform better when driven by pulse start technology. I believe most European bulbs are. There is a good argument to operate European bulbs with "HQI" (aka pulse start) ballasts instead of standard ballasts.
If anything, I want anyone reading this to understand that HQI is a loaded term, and completely misused by aquarium marketers. If given a chance, request from manufacturers that they stop marketing their products as HQI and call the ballasts for what they are (standard probe start, pulse start, HPS, etc.). Osram reportedly has a true HQI ballast, but it is not available in the States, nor do I know how well it performs with non-HQI bulbs (which is pretty much every bulb but the radium/powerstars).
Confusing, don't you agree.
After talking things over with a few people in the industry, here's the story that I'm sticking to (and it's mildly confusing):
HPS ballasts can be used to drive pulse start bulbs. Such pulse-start bulbs - bulbs that don't have a built in starting probe - include the true HQI bulb by Osram, which needs an ignitor to fire. HPS ballasts and pulse-start MH ballasts both offer the necessary ignitor to fire this type of bulb.
Likewise, DE bulbs need a ignitor to fire. If you look at a DE bulb, there's clearly no starting probe; it's a very simple, unfettered design. To fire the bulb, enough voltage must be applied at start up, and that's why an ignitor is necessary for double ended bulbs.
As for SE Ushios, they have starting probes and so can fire up if driven by standard MH ballasts. However, numerous reports (including Sanjay's ballast comparision of the PFO "HQI" which I presume is a pulse start ballast) suggests that Ushios perform better when driven by pulse start technology. I believe most European bulbs are. There is a good argument to operate European bulbs with "HQI" (aka pulse start) ballasts instead of standard ballasts.
If anything, I want anyone reading this to understand that HQI is a loaded term, and completely misused by aquarium marketers. If given a chance, request from manufacturers that they stop marketing their products as HQI and call the ballasts for what they are (standard probe start, pulse start, HPS, etc.). Osram reportedly has a true HQI ballast, but it is not available in the States, nor do I know how well it performs with non-HQI bulbs (which is pretty much every bulb but the radium/powerstars).
Confusing, don't you agree.
Thanks Leonard, makes sense
Below, is a HID pulse start ballast brochure by Advance. It is an Adobe PDF file. It is very informative and explains many benefits of Pulse Start Ballasts.
This technology is very promising, and a definite improvement over standard MH ballasts.
http://www.advancetransformer.com/liter ... 20-R01.pdf
Regards, Marco
Below, is a HID pulse start ballast brochure by Advance. It is an Adobe PDF file. It is very informative and explains many benefits of Pulse Start Ballasts.
This technology is very promising, and a definite improvement over standard MH ballasts.
http://www.advancetransformer.com/liter ... 20-R01.pdf
Regards, Marco
Very interesting thread. Leonard, thanks for all the great info.
In commercial MH lighting applications pulse-start technology is definitely becoming the preferred choice now. Engineers are starting to spec these systems more and more over the probe-start technology for building/parking lot lighting - presumably because of the increased lamp life and better lumen maintenance.
I'm wondering if this is the reason for many of the claims we are seeing in the reef hobby about the excellent performance of DE lamp setups? If the DE setups are pulse-start vs. most of the SE lamp setups in the hobby being probe-start, that would make sense.
Thoughts?
In commercial MH lighting applications pulse-start technology is definitely becoming the preferred choice now. Engineers are starting to spec these systems more and more over the probe-start technology for building/parking lot lighting - presumably because of the increased lamp life and better lumen maintenance.
I'm wondering if this is the reason for many of the claims we are seeing in the reef hobby about the excellent performance of DE lamp setups? If the DE setups are pulse-start vs. most of the SE lamp setups in the hobby being probe-start, that would make sense.
Thoughts?
Almost all of the euro lamps are pulse start, and should be run with M13x series ballasts. Some US versions of Ushio lamps have ignitors built in, but all the others dont.
I'll go one step farther and say that the 250w european lamps should be run on "HQI" (M80) ballasts, be they mogul or DE. The 175w should run on Pulse start, and also the 400w on the pulse start.
HPS do have an ignitor, but run the lamps at a different voltage. Just cause they burn, doesn't mean its right.
There is a difference between pulse start, and "HQI". The ANSI code for the 150, and 250w HQI are M81, and M80 respectively. The pulse start ballasts are the M13x series.
Think about it this way, the europeans run the same ballast for all lamps, the same should hold true here. The consumer has in many cases been misinformed, or misled, whether it be intentional or not...who knows? The fact that they run 220v/50hz, and we have 120/60 means nothing as the current at the lamp is the same.
This can be verified by the manufacturers, or simply by pulling the old fluke and testing the lamp voltage, and comparing it to the manufacturer recommendations. When I say manufacturers, I mean the actual manufacturers, not their distributors, who in some (most) cases don't really know for themselves.
Hope this helps a bit,
Perry
I'll go one step farther and say that the 250w european lamps should be run on "HQI" (M80) ballasts, be they mogul or DE. The 175w should run on Pulse start, and also the 400w on the pulse start.
HPS do have an ignitor, but run the lamps at a different voltage. Just cause they burn, doesn't mean its right.
There is a difference between pulse start, and "HQI". The ANSI code for the 150, and 250w HQI are M81, and M80 respectively. The pulse start ballasts are the M13x series.
Think about it this way, the europeans run the same ballast for all lamps, the same should hold true here. The consumer has in many cases been misinformed, or misled, whether it be intentional or not...who knows? The fact that they run 220v/50hz, and we have 120/60 means nothing as the current at the lamp is the same.
This can be verified by the manufacturers, or simply by pulling the old fluke and testing the lamp voltage, and comparing it to the manufacturer recommendations. When I say manufacturers, I mean the actual manufacturers, not their distributors, who in some (most) cases don't really know for themselves.
Hope this helps a bit,
Perry
Perry:
A quick look-up on Advance's site with the ANSI codes you provided seems to reveal that the M80 ballasts have an ignitor much like the M135 ballasts. The regular probe-start type ballasts (like M59) do not have this.
What is the difference between these M80 ("HQI") ballasts and the pulse-start M135 ballasts? They seem pretty similar in the wiring diagrams...
Thanks.
A quick look-up on Advance's site with the ANSI codes you provided seems to reveal that the M80 ballasts have an ignitor much like the M135 ballasts. The regular probe-start type ballasts (like M59) do not have this.
What is the difference between these M80 ("HQI") ballasts and the pulse-start M135 ballasts? They seem pretty similar in the wiring diagrams...
Thanks.
The difference is the current, and the voltage. The Pulse Start runs on 265volts/2.5 amps, and the M80 runs on 240/2.3. They use different ignitors, and the wiring schematics are in fact different. Really, they are a totally different type of ballast. Teh M135 is a SuperCWA (most commonly), or sometimes a Reg-Lag. The M80 is a High Reactance ballast, which runs much more like the Reactor ballasts used in europe.
They are similar in that they both have ignitors, but beyond that, not a whole lot in common.
-Perry
They are similar in that they both have ignitors, but beyond that, not a whole lot in common.
-Perry
PerryinCA":2jvnkfkh said:
Where may I be able to find Ushios without starting probes in the US? All the ones that come through the west coast have them.
Like I mentioned previously, let's stop using the term "HQI", even in parentheses. It does nothing but further the confusion. M80 and M81 ballasts are used to burn double ended or bi-pin metal halides, and not true HQI (for which Osram has their own designated ballasts not available here in the States).
True. I don't recommend anyone burn their metal halides using HPS ballasts. However, Osram Sylvania does recommend using HPS ballast on true HQI bulbs.
One issue that came to mind just now is differiantion of "HQI"-marketed ballasts in the States between different wattages. The 70, 150, and 250 watt "HQI" ballasts are probably M8x series, while the 400 watt (one I work with the most) is probably a M135 pulse start ballast as there are no M8x ballast for 400 watt lamps. Aside from the fact none of these ballasts are actually true HQI, the use of the term to represent two different types of ballast in the States compounds the confusion. Do manufactuers/distributers think the American public isn't able to memorize 2 and 3 digit numbers? :roll:
I agree that referring to the double ended lamps as HQI is inappropriate (been saying it for quite a while) however, Advance who makes the M80 ballast clearly states HQI in thier catalog. I believe they have licensed it from Osram to make this ballast to accomodate the HQI line of lamps.
Advance is the only domestic manufacturer of these I believe.
maybe I should restate the Ushio comment. There are BLV/Ushio lamps sold in the US market that do not have the Ushio name on it, and are not probe start lamps. The 250 watt have the probe start, as do the 400w Blue. I just cracked open some new cases of 175w, and 400w 10k, and neither one of them had them (tungsten starting probes). That would match ushios ballast recommendations - M137 for the 175w, M59 for the 250w, and M135 for the 400w 10k.
And Leonard, I don't think that the ANSI specs are meant to be common knowledge. ANSI is strict with thier codes, and the ballast manufacturers don't support the general public wiring these things themselves and feel there is a "need to know" situation. Its up to the OEMs to be sure the proper ballast is run with the proper lamp, and that the public knows that.
In Europe, its common for MH lamps to run on HPS. Over here its different, and for good reason.
-Perry
Advance is the only domestic manufacturer of these I believe.
maybe I should restate the Ushio comment. There are BLV/Ushio lamps sold in the US market that do not have the Ushio name on it, and are not probe start lamps. The 250 watt have the probe start, as do the 400w Blue. I just cracked open some new cases of 175w, and 400w 10k, and neither one of them had them (tungsten starting probes). That would match ushios ballast recommendations - M137 for the 175w, M59 for the 250w, and M135 for the 400w 10k.
And Leonard, I don't think that the ANSI specs are meant to be common knowledge. ANSI is strict with thier codes, and the ballast manufacturers don't support the general public wiring these things themselves and feel there is a "need to know" situation. Its up to the OEMs to be sure the proper ballast is run with the proper lamp, and that the public knows that.
In Europe, its common for MH lamps to run on HPS. Over here its different, and for good reason.
-Perry
Thanks for the info on the Advanced HQI ballast. I was not aware they were now producing them in the States.
One correction in regards to ushios ballast recommendations: the 250W ballast should be M138, not M59 (which is the 400W standard CWA ballast).
I completely agree with you in not recommending people wire their own ballasts, for all the obvious reasons. But at the same time, I can't help but feel that more information is always better then less (esp. in light of all the misinformation about lighting in this hobby).
One correction in regards to ushios ballast recommendations: the 250W ballast should be M138, not M59 (which is the 400W standard CWA ballast).
I completely agree with you in not recommending people wire their own ballasts, for all the obvious reasons. But at the same time, I can't help but feel that more information is always better then less (esp. in light of all the misinformation about lighting in this hobby).
Whoops! that was a typo. I meant the 250w ballast recommended by Ushio is the M58, and specifically NOT the M138. The Ushio 250w lamps DO have the probe start ignitors, and running a pulse start can hurt lamp life.
Agreed, too much info is always better than not enough. Well, unless its a friend talking graphically about a distasteful choice on a friday night.
-Perry
Agreed, too much info is always better than not enough. Well, unless its a friend talking graphically about a distasteful choice on a friday night.
-Perry
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