Dewman:
Well said!
As the "outer" of the theological aspects of this debate (they seemed obvious to me), i'll say that i'm pretty firmly in the Non-God camp, at least in the traditional guy-with-a-beard-in-a-robe sense.
On the other hand, i'm also one of the most right-wing people i know. i hunt. i eat meat. i'm a member of the military. i'm the president of a local shooting sports (skeet) club.
i say these things to separate the idea of religious belief from politics. Certainly there are a lot more "fundamentalists" amongst the right-of-center crowd than those that consider themselves "liberals" but it's certainly not the rule.
As i re-read my post, i can see where i might not have communicated clearly, and esmithiii has a good point... we in this hobby (and in most other aspects of our lives) are "playing god" with these animals.
The "playing god" part was not what i was objecting to. What i object to is the *disposability* implied by IcantTHINKofONE's attitude.
Sure i've killed my fair share of animals in this hobby. i've even been guilty of ignoring (or "misreading" ... heh) the advice of people more experienced than i, to the animals' detriment.
But i've never, ever thought "Oh, i know that flame scallop will die in a few weeks, but hell... it's really cheap and looks cool while it lasts."
To my mind, that kind of willful disregard for the wellbeing of the tank's inhabitants is inexcusable. It demonstrates a lack of regard for life, and seems to me to be pretty disrespectful towards nature. (you can read "nature" as "god" if you like. or not)
So.. in the end, noone is likely to change their mind about something like this because of a discussion on a BBS, and maybe this discussion has run it's course here, but wanted to point out that it wasn't my intent to say that we should rend our clothes in mourning every time we have to scrub some more GSP off of a rock, but rather that i find a cavalier attitude towards the reef life disturbing.
While we all keep the tanks because they are "cool" and certainly many of the inhabitants are chosen for their visual appeal, they are not "decorator" items..... these are not a matching set of Stars & Stripes plastic tumblers you got at Target for your 4th of July barbeque.... plastic tumblers and funky curtain rods are disposable things you buy for their looks and throw (or better, give) away when you're tired of them.
Fish and inverts (any animal, really) are something else entirely.'
(moderators: sorry about the theological content!)
Well said!
As the "outer" of the theological aspects of this debate (they seemed obvious to me), i'll say that i'm pretty firmly in the Non-God camp, at least in the traditional guy-with-a-beard-in-a-robe sense.
On the other hand, i'm also one of the most right-wing people i know. i hunt. i eat meat. i'm a member of the military. i'm the president of a local shooting sports (skeet) club.
i say these things to separate the idea of religious belief from politics. Certainly there are a lot more "fundamentalists" amongst the right-of-center crowd than those that consider themselves "liberals" but it's certainly not the rule.
As i re-read my post, i can see where i might not have communicated clearly, and esmithiii has a good point... we in this hobby (and in most other aspects of our lives) are "playing god" with these animals.
The "playing god" part was not what i was objecting to. What i object to is the *disposability* implied by IcantTHINKofONE's attitude.
Sure i've killed my fair share of animals in this hobby. i've even been guilty of ignoring (or "misreading" ... heh) the advice of people more experienced than i, to the animals' detriment.
But i've never, ever thought "Oh, i know that flame scallop will die in a few weeks, but hell... it's really cheap and looks cool while it lasts."
To my mind, that kind of willful disregard for the wellbeing of the tank's inhabitants is inexcusable. It demonstrates a lack of regard for life, and seems to me to be pretty disrespectful towards nature. (you can read "nature" as "god" if you like. or not)
So.. in the end, noone is likely to change their mind about something like this because of a discussion on a BBS, and maybe this discussion has run it's course here, but wanted to point out that it wasn't my intent to say that we should rend our clothes in mourning every time we have to scrub some more GSP off of a rock, but rather that i find a cavalier attitude towards the reef life disturbing.
While we all keep the tanks because they are "cool" and certainly many of the inhabitants are chosen for their visual appeal, they are not "decorator" items..... these are not a matching set of Stars & Stripes plastic tumblers you got at Target for your 4th of July barbeque.... plastic tumblers and funky curtain rods are disposable things you buy for their looks and throw (or better, give) away when you're tired of them.
Fish and inverts (any animal, really) are something else entirely.'
(moderators: sorry about the theological content!)
For what it is worth,,
I am NOT a tree hugger-Not radical in any way-am in the non-God camp more or less, but found the equating a fish with a rock/truck and his general lack of respect for life, to be very offensive.
Also, fish do not feel loved or happy !!
That Tang that is flared up at the site of you, is actually telling you to get out of its territory and it comes to the front of the tank because it relates to you as Food. Nothing more !!!
I do feel that the hobbyist should respect the life of the animals he/she keeps. A pretty fish or bird in a glass box/cage, to match ones decor is insulting to me and I would assume to also be an insult to God (if one believes he created them also).
Creating a little piece of the ocean with some of its diversity is fascinating.
Respecting the life of any animal or human does not make one a tree hugger.
It makes one responsible and caring !!!
I am NOT a tree hugger-Not radical in any way-am in the non-God camp more or less, but found the equating a fish with a rock/truck and his general lack of respect for life, to be very offensive.
Also, fish do not feel loved or happy !!
That Tang that is flared up at the site of you, is actually telling you to get out of its territory and it comes to the front of the tank because it relates to you as Food. Nothing more !!!
I do feel that the hobbyist should respect the life of the animals he/she keeps. A pretty fish or bird in a glass box/cage, to match ones decor is insulting to me and I would assume to also be an insult to God (if one believes he created them also).
Creating a little piece of the ocean with some of its diversity is fascinating.
Respecting the life of any animal or human does not make one a tree hugger.
It makes one responsible and caring !!!
Yes, you CAN drive a truck off of a cliff and be interested in what breaks..... :roll:
BUT...based on the knowledge that is available to us, you could actually anticipate what would break, care about the broken parts and take steps to prevent them from breaking in the first place.... :roll: .
In the evolution of Reefs.org, it's nice to see that there are fewer and fewer people like Icanthinkofone....and a lot fewer flame wars.
Mitch
(kurtis, where are you?)
BUT...based on the knowledge that is available to us, you could actually anticipate what would break, care about the broken parts and take steps to prevent them from breaking in the first place.... :roll: .
In the evolution of Reefs.org, it's nice to see that there are fewer and fewer people like Icanthinkofone....and a lot fewer flame wars.
Mitch
(kurtis, where are you?)
esmithiii:
Pull!
(if i'm ever headed that way, we'll put a few up!)
Carpentersreef:
"the evolution of Reefs.org"
Now *that* is why i like this place. it evolves. i've tried some of the other boards, but here seems to be where the majority of the thinking (if sometimes brusque) people are.
It's my sincere hope that Kirtis is still around, having undergone some evolution of his own... people change, and when they do they often change handles. That's a healthy and normal thing in an online community, imo (who am i to say? i run bianca.com, though that's not a real qualification). So perhaps IcantTHINKofONE will learn some, get some clue and finally think of another handle. That one will fade away, and in it's place will be left a more enlightened reefer. To *my* mind, that's probably the single most valuable thing about this board.
Pull!
(if i'm ever headed that way, we'll put a few up!)
Carpentersreef:
"the evolution of Reefs.org"
Now *that* is why i like this place. it evolves. i've tried some of the other boards, but here seems to be where the majority of the thinking (if sometimes brusque) people are.
It's my sincere hope that Kirtis is still around, having undergone some evolution of his own... people change, and when they do they often change handles. That's a healthy and normal thing in an online community, imo (who am i to say? i run bianca.com, though that's not a real qualification). So perhaps IcantTHINKofONE will learn some, get some clue and finally think of another handle. That one will fade away, and in it's place will be left a more enlightened reefer. To *my* mind, that's probably the single most valuable thing about this board.
FlameAngel...
I was not necessarily referring to you. So PLEASE don't take it that way. :wink:
I was just speaking of two different schools of thought. By tree hugger, I meant the group of radical leftists, who will resort to violence in defense of a flower. And the other extreme would be those who bomb abortion clinics and the like.
I tend to fall in the middle somewhere. Most of us are just middle of the road, happy go lucky people who enjoy having a slice of the ocean in our living rooms. We create a place we can go and get lost in the beauty of the ocean, if only for a few seconds. I believe that's what this hobby is all about. If anyone truly felt that the animals should be left in the ocean, they would never taken up this hobby. Lets be honest with ourselves.
Besides, reefs are cool.
And even though the rest of the world thinks we're geeks for getting excited at the sight of thick, brown, viscous bubbles rising from the end of a plastic tube, we all secretly know were cool too.
I am cool. :wink:
I was not necessarily referring to you. So PLEASE don't take it that way. :wink:
I was just speaking of two different schools of thought. By tree hugger, I meant the group of radical leftists, who will resort to violence in defense of a flower. And the other extreme would be those who bomb abortion clinics and the like.
I tend to fall in the middle somewhere. Most of us are just middle of the road, happy go lucky people who enjoy having a slice of the ocean in our living rooms. We create a place we can go and get lost in the beauty of the ocean, if only for a few seconds. I believe that's what this hobby is all about. If anyone truly felt that the animals should be left in the ocean, they would never taken up this hobby. Lets be honest with ourselves.
Besides, reefs are cool.
And even though the rest of the world thinks we're geeks for getting excited at the sight of thick, brown, viscous bubbles rising from the end of a plastic tube, we all secretly know were cool too.
I am cool. :wink:
Posted by Dewman:
-Then why try to insult them with a statement like "left wing tree huggers", this seems like a strange kind of respect to me.
-Are you sure their not right? I mean, it does say this in the Christian Bible.
-Wait a minute, this is a reef board that trys to promote ethical reef keeping, I could care less what his religious preference is.
-Psycho??? Why, because he has a different belief than you?
-We are right now, 99% of all species that have lived on this planet are now extinct. Man has only been dominate for a very short time, and one meteorite could take care of that in short order.
-Why do you believe this?
-Why does this amaze you?
- I agree, lack of perspective can lead to problems. IMO if we continue to have an "all animals were put on the earth for mans use as he sees fit" perspective we will see this reef hobby be legislated out of existence.
Steve
-Then why try to insult them with a statement like "left wing tree huggers", this seems like a strange kind of respect to me.
-Are you sure their not right? I mean, it does say this in the Christian Bible.
-Wait a minute, this is a reef board that trys to promote ethical reef keeping, I could care less what his religious preference is.
-Psycho??? Why, because he has a different belief than you?
-We are right now, 99% of all species that have lived on this planet are now extinct. Man has only been dominate for a very short time, and one meteorite could take care of that in short order.
-Why do you believe this?
-Why does this amaze you?
- I agree, lack of perspective can lead to problems. IMO if we continue to have an "all animals were put on the earth for mans use as he sees fit" perspective we will see this reef hobby be legislated out of existence.
Steve
Obviously SPC, you are taking this personally.
I must have hit a nerve . If you found that comment insulting, that's your problem. I will not apologize for having my own beliefs. I now realize I may have mis-spoke when I said that I respected their opinion, rather, i respect their right to have an opinion, even though I may not agree and may poke fun. I think people who take ANYTHING too seriously are laughable and open themselves up to a lot of criticizm.
Reef board or not SPC, a lot of what was being said was weighted with religous implications.
By the way, although I said that I do subscribe to the belief in a God, I never said anything about christianity or the bible.
That was your assumtion. And you know what happens when
you ASS-U-ME.
While I do not hold the same belief that our friend ICANTTHINKOFONE does, yes, I do believe a human life is worth more than the life of a single fish (NOT an entire species though).
I never said that I thought all anmals were here for our manipulation, I was simply saying that all animals on earth rely on us, the human race, to make responsible decisions regarding the environment.
If we continue irresponsible logging practices, many of our forest creatures who rely on the timber will decline and eventually become extinct. The same holds true for dumping in the ocean, and burning the rainforests and polluting the ground-water and everything else humans are doing to make life on this planet more difficult.
So you see, when I said we are in control, I meant that no other animal on earth has the power to cause the extinction of all the other species, except MAN.
So ultimately, we DO hold the power of life and death in our hands.
I guess I better keep my eye out for those meteorites :wink:
I must have hit a nerve . If you found that comment insulting, that's your problem. I will not apologize for having my own beliefs. I now realize I may have mis-spoke when I said that I respected their opinion, rather, i respect their right to have an opinion, even though I may not agree and may poke fun. I think people who take ANYTHING too seriously are laughable and open themselves up to a lot of criticizm.
Reef board or not SPC, a lot of what was being said was weighted with religous implications.
By the way, although I said that I do subscribe to the belief in a God, I never said anything about christianity or the bible.
That was your assumtion. And you know what happens when
you ASS-U-ME.
While I do not hold the same belief that our friend ICANTTHINKOFONE does, yes, I do believe a human life is worth more than the life of a single fish (NOT an entire species though).
I never said that I thought all anmals were here for our manipulation, I was simply saying that all animals on earth rely on us, the human race, to make responsible decisions regarding the environment.
If we continue irresponsible logging practices, many of our forest creatures who rely on the timber will decline and eventually become extinct. The same holds true for dumping in the ocean, and burning the rainforests and polluting the ground-water and everything else humans are doing to make life on this planet more difficult.
So you see, when I said we are in control, I meant that no other animal on earth has the power to cause the extinction of all the other species, except MAN.
So ultimately, we DO hold the power of life and death in our hands.
I guess I better keep my eye out for those meteorites :wink:
promised myself i'd stay out of this now but had to ask one question. is it your point of view that non god types are concervationists and true believers are ment to rape the earth? god created the world don't you think he would be a little happier if you took better care of it? i don't see a conflict there
ReffsRCool,
I never said anything of the sort. I said we are the top of the chain and we have to be responsible when we make changes to the earth.
Re-read my last post. I think I have made it abundatly clear what I meant.
We've gotten WAY off subject here.
I'm outta here.
I never said anything of the sort. I said we are the top of the chain and we have to be responsible when we make changes to the earth.
Re-read my last post. I think I have made it abundatly clear what I meant.
We've gotten WAY off subject here.
I'm outta here.
Posted by Dewman:
-Obviously? Not at all, in fact what I was trying to do was learn more about your point of view and see if it had any validity for me. BTW, this statement seems like a large assumption on your part.
-Hmm, lets look at this statement you made earlier:
-I saw nothing religious until you and Ernie brought it up. Please point out where any other person mentioned anything that had religious implications before this.
-No actually I said the Christian Bible, would it have been better to say the Judeo/Christian Bible? Please help educate me by telling me what other religions have this same belief system about animals that do not use this religious text.
-And why do you believe this?
-No actually all animals would be just fine without us, in fact most would be much better off.
-I disagree, I don't believe man could ever kill off all species of life on the planet. He can kill a great deal of the life that we know now, but not all. And in the end all that this would do is begin a new cycle of evolution, the control you see is just an illusion.
Steve
-Obviously? Not at all, in fact what I was trying to do was learn more about your point of view and see if it had any validity for me. BTW, this statement seems like a large assumption on your part.
-Hmm, lets look at this statement you made earlier:
Now to me when someone is stewing that generally means they are pretty darn serious, this is an assumption on my part however :wink: .
-I saw nothing religious until you and Ernie brought it up. Please point out where any other person mentioned anything that had religious implications before this.
-No actually I said the Christian Bible, would it have been better to say the Judeo/Christian Bible? Please help educate me by telling me what other religions have this same belief system about animals that do not use this religious text.
-And why do you believe this?
-No actually all animals would be just fine without us, in fact most would be much better off.
-I disagree, I don't believe man could ever kill off all species of life on the planet. He can kill a great deal of the life that we know now, but not all. And in the end all that this would do is begin a new cycle of evolution, the control you see is just an illusion.
Steve
Judy, I totally agree with you. Yeah, I did work quite a few years in an lfs during college, then again as a Marineland sales rep part-time after school before finally starting my own set-up business, which unfortunately now I don't really have time for. :?
I think the impetus for my original post came from several trips to local stores (I live in Indianapolis) where not only did I know a lot more than the customers (and showed more of a drive and motivation to learn), but also the employees! I think that was mentioned in a few posts on this thread, too. It also came from a recent trip with my wife to the Newport Aquarium in Cincinatti. WOW! Very impressive setup they've got down there. I was expecting not much more than some of the really high-end stores I've seen, but they have a great public aquarium! The only beef I had was that they had a lot of high school interns working there whose knowledge (while still being more than 95% of lfs workers) was still not nearly what it needed to be to dole out information to the public, imo. I asked one worker in the reef tunnel how long they'd had their Titan Trigger and she said, "Oh, you mean that? That's a wrasse." Umm, sorry. Another kid tried to disagree with me when I was telling my wife that horseshoe crabs have a simple photoreceptor eye at the end of their tail. I wasn't trying to flaunt my knowledge or anything, because if there's one thing this hobby teaches you quickly it's that even if you *think* you're experienced, you're still an idiot. :wink:
Anyway, I appreciate everyone's replies, and it's great to see a true discussion of this issue rather than just flame-wars between the two sides. An interesting point was brought up that I didn't really consider at first, but now I really agree with. Maybe there's a third category that fills that grey area between the conservationist aquarist and the "ain't it cool" aquarist. I think that third category are the 'newbies' we see on the boards that have dived face-first into the hobby and are now realizing how out-of-their-depth they are, but are now trying to learn. That at least shows their concern for the animals whose care they're now responsible for.
On another side note, I went down to Evansville (southern Indiana) to see my wife's folks this past weekend and there are a couple of *extremely* impressive stores down there! I'm still trying to find a good LFS in the Indy area (besides Premium, who is fantastic for live rock and dry goods, but never seems to get much in the way of pretty exotic fish).
As always, take care and happy reefing!
-John
I think the impetus for my original post came from several trips to local stores (I live in Indianapolis) where not only did I know a lot more than the customers (and showed more of a drive and motivation to learn), but also the employees! I think that was mentioned in a few posts on this thread, too. It also came from a recent trip with my wife to the Newport Aquarium in Cincinatti. WOW! Very impressive setup they've got down there. I was expecting not much more than some of the really high-end stores I've seen, but they have a great public aquarium! The only beef I had was that they had a lot of high school interns working there whose knowledge (while still being more than 95% of lfs workers) was still not nearly what it needed to be to dole out information to the public, imo. I asked one worker in the reef tunnel how long they'd had their Titan Trigger and she said, "Oh, you mean that? That's a wrasse." Umm, sorry. Another kid tried to disagree with me when I was telling my wife that horseshoe crabs have a simple photoreceptor eye at the end of their tail. I wasn't trying to flaunt my knowledge or anything, because if there's one thing this hobby teaches you quickly it's that even if you *think* you're experienced, you're still an idiot. :wink:
Anyway, I appreciate everyone's replies, and it's great to see a true discussion of this issue rather than just flame-wars between the two sides. An interesting point was brought up that I didn't really consider at first, but now I really agree with. Maybe there's a third category that fills that grey area between the conservationist aquarist and the "ain't it cool" aquarist. I think that third category are the 'newbies' we see on the boards that have dived face-first into the hobby and are now realizing how out-of-their-depth they are, but are now trying to learn. That at least shows their concern for the animals whose care they're now responsible for.
On another side note, I went down to Evansville (southern Indiana) to see my wife's folks this past weekend and there are a couple of *extremely* impressive stores down there! I'm still trying to find a good LFS in the Indy area (besides Premium, who is fantastic for live rock and dry goods, but never seems to get much in the way of pretty exotic fish).
As always, take care and happy reefing!
-John
Sharkky":1143lawf said:
LOL, I was half asleep when I checked email this morning and got the notification that there was a reply to this thread. I missed the fact that it had stretched onto three pages and had indeed turned into a flame war. It's amazing how the smallest spark can set off a fuse attached to a stick of dynamite. 8O
-John
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