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randy holmes-farley

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esmithiii:

The things that you post in that quote are, unfortunately, either untrue, or apply equally well to adding the lime and vinegar in the larger volume of water.

It is too bad that people just accept such statements. :( :( :( :(
 

ChrisRD

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Ryan22":1cyppa6r said:
This should be a fairly simple one for you guys...

LOL - this'll teach you to ask a simple question, huh?... :D

FWIW, my Ca/Alk numbers are going back up mixing the vinegar in the water first and then adding kalk (as Randy suggested). Mixing the kalk in the vinegar (per Breefcase) didn't work for me - my Ca/Alk numbers began to fall doing that...
 

Ryan22

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Randy Holmes-Farley":cryhgm97 said:
Anyone who is mixing the lime and the vinegar, and getting it to all dissolve in that tiny volume is converting all of it to calcium acetate. They are then adding way more vinegar than was originally proposed by Craig, and are then going to miss out on many of the potential benefits of limewater (the precipitation of phosphate, the precipitation of all of the lime impurities in the water prior to delivery to the tank, etc.).

Randy, Sorry I'm pretty slow at this chemistry thing. So what you are saying here is that if there is enough liquid (vinegar) to completely disolve all of the kalk, then we are using too much and it could actually be detrimental to the process? At this point, since I have no corals at all, my main goal here is the precipitation of phosphates. However, once I beat this pesky little cyano problem I'm having I plan to start adding corals.

This will teach me to ask a question that I won't understand the answer to :lol:

In my situation, do you thin it would actually be better not to use vinegar in my Kalk at all?
 

ChrisRD

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Ryan22":288rtnz1 said:
In my situation, do you thin it would actually be better not to use vinegar in my Kalk at all?

If you have no corals, you don't have much calcium demand, so I don't see why it would be necessary. I only tried it recently because I saw a slight drop in my Ca/Alk levels over the past month and was trying to boost them back up where they were.

I may just go back to using regular kalkwasser and try to increase my evaporation as an alternate method of getting my levels back up.

I'm also considering a DIY kalkreactor in the near future.

BTW, I'm using the vinegar quantities that Craig Bingman recommends. Breefcase suggests using twice as much, however, I'm more comfortable with Craig/Randy's recommendations. :wink:
 

randy holmes-farley

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Ryan:

If you only want to precipitate phosphate, then I strongly believe that you should ad no vinegar whatsoever. You want the pH in the limewater as high as possible.

Exactly what is happening when and if limewater reduces phosphate is unclear. One theory is that the high pH converts the phosphate to the PO4--- form when the limewater initially hits the tank. In that high pH, high calcium solution, calcium phosphate may precipitate. FWIW, all of the other reasonable theories about how limewater might reduce phosphate also involve high pH.
 

Ryan22

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Thanks Randy,
Sometimes I really need someone to spoon feed me this stuff. :oops: You just made my Kalk issues much more simple,

Thanks again,
 

esmithiii

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Randy- Have you read BReefCase's entire post? As I am sure is evident, chemistry is not my strong suit. Maybe you can look at his equations and tell us where the mistake is?

Ernie
 

randy holmes-farley

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I'm not sure which thread you pulled that from, He and I have debated some issues around limewater in some threads here at reefs.org. I don't recall debating adding the lime directly to the vinegar, nor do I remember seeing anyone do it until recently, but I may have simply overlooked that issue.

I don't expect that he shows any equation that demonstrates that putting lime directly into vinegar is better than doing so in the presence of more water, so I cannot show you an equation that is wrong.

This assertion, however, is clearly wrong if it is being used to justify not adding the water first:


First, it will get more Calcium ions (Ca++) into the solution because you are dissolving the Ca(OH)2 in an acid instead of water, and forming Calcium Acetate, which exists as a dissociated equilibrium of free Calcium ions and Acetate ions.

In fact, more calcium hydroxide will dissolve in 1 L of water to which has been added a certain amount of vinegar than will dissolve in that vinegar alone (unless it completely dissolves in both, in which case they are the same).


Second, the Acetic Acid (Vinegar) provides an equivalent of all the CO2 you need to avoid precipitating the newly-added Calcium ions as useless white Calcium Carbonate powder.


I think this statement is a little confusing. As written, it must mean the CO2 generated when the vinegar is metabolized in the tank. If so, then
he is adding way more than enough (twice as much as necessary), but however much it is, it isn't reduced by mixing them in water first.

I think what he meant was that it adds enough acid to prevent precipitation of calcium carbonate if CO2 entered the system from the air. Personally, I think that concern is overblown, but regardless, if you mix in enough vinegar to lower the pH to the point where CaCO3 cannot form in the vinegar/lime mixture when exposed to air, as he does, then he has effectively neutralized the mixture, and has calcium acetate remaining.

That is where the impurity problem comes in. Lime can contain all kinds of stuff that you don't want enetering your tank, and the high pH of normal limewtaer causes it's precipitation as, say, copper oxide/hydroxide. Just look at the colored gunk that is often left behind. These concerns apply to heavy metals, phosphate, arsenic, etc.
The amount of vinegar that Craig recommends is less, and the pH does not drop as much, keeping much of this stuff precipitated (but not quite as efficiently as limewater without vinegar). Full neutralization won't do much if any of this precipitation.

Third, after all the cool Calcium ion chemistry is over, the leftover Acetate ions from the broken-down Vinegar leaves you with free organic Carbon in the water that feeds the bacteria in your tank so that it converts more poisonous Nitrates to NO2 gas (a very good thing).

I don't think that much NO2 gas is made relative to N2, but that aside, the effect is exactly the same whether the mixing is done in water or directly in the vinegar. I also believe that this is an undemonstrated theory. Ive not seen anyone add acetate to a reef tank and observe a sudden decrease in nitrate (by this, or by the more liklely mechanism of simple increased bacterial growth taking up nitrate). It theoretically can happen, but isn't shown that I know of.
 
A

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What ever happened to Breifcase. He seems to have disappeared. Hmmm.
 

Newts

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Randy-could you just clarify a couple of things,first ,so your saying add the vinegar to the water first than stir in Kalk?Second,how mutch vinegar should be used?Third is it really that benificial to add vinegar.I started using vinegar after reading BReefcase's post many months ago,and actually have had good results,but if there is a better way or SAFER way than I want to listen.I have read some of your articles and believe you know what your talking about.
 

Garry thomas

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I started off confused n ow im just............ more confused question? I run my reef tank at a stable 460ppm calcium with the help of a korrallin reactor and a couple of gallons of kalkwasser each day, would this method of kalk and vinegar work for me. if so what, and how?


GT S WALES
PS i posted this on an english forum and like myself, no one had heard of it before. I like to think that i know most things , but obviously NOT............PLEASE HELP and i can share this info with others in Britain

THANKS!
 

ChrisRD

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Newts":zgm78j4p said:
how mutch vinegar should be used?

Check out Craig Bingman's article (a link was posted in this thread) - he suggests no more than 12.2 ml per liter.

Newts":zgm78j4p said:
Third is it really that benificial to add vinegar.

If you're not having any trouble keeping your Ca/Alk levels up with regular limewater and/or you're not having a high pH problem from using regular limewater, then no, there's really no point in using it.

Newts":zgm78j4p said:
I have read some of your articles and believe you know what your talking about.

LOL - let's hope so - the man has a PhD in Chemistry. :wink:
 

ChrisRD

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Garry thomas":3lsrzeii said:
I run my reef tank at a stable 460ppm calcium with the help of a korrallin reactor and a couple of gallons of kalkwasser each day, would this method of kalk and vinegar work for me. if so what, and how?

Doesn't sound like you're having any trouble maintaining your Ca levels, so why bother?

Here's Randy's response to this (clipped from the old thread Ernie provided above):

Randy Holmes-Farley":3lsrzeii said:
...the advantages are these:

1. If you get adequate Ca++ and alk, but the pH always runs too high, adding vinegar after the solution has become saturated (with no extra solids) is a suitable way to lower the pH. Just adding some vinegar directly to the sump will also have this same effect (I've done this).

2. If you don't quite get enough Ca++ and alk from saturated limewater, adding vinegar before dissolving the Ca(OH)2 (and adding more solids to permit greater dissolution), will be a suitable way to get some more. Craig claims about 36% more can be had this way.

3. I don't know if many people will benefit from the carbon source idea as it relates to conversion of nitrate to N2. If organics were the limiting factor in that reaction, then it might help. I just don't know if organics are in such short supply in most tanks.

The potential disadvantages are these (IMO):

1. It's a complication to worry about that is, IMO, unnecessary for newbies to get involved with.

2. The potential to help solubilize undesirable impurities in limewater is a possible concern. Tuus effect is minor for small amounts of vinegar (as Craig pointed out a few days ago for lead), but gets bigger as the amount of vinegar rises. At the point of dissolving all of the lime that you use with a lot of vinegar and forming a low pH solution (say, 7), you potentially send many of the impurities into the tank (as you do when using milky limewater). If one chooses to do this, I'd advise using a high quality lime.

3. There is the potential for unusual algal growths that some have reported, though it's hard to prove that the people that report these had it result from the vinegar.

FWIW, looking at your tank Garry - I wouldn't do anything different!! :)
 

Newts

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This has been a great thread for me.Its cleared up some misinformation I had. :oops: I think I'll go back to just Kalk for a while,and stop using the vinegar.See where that puts my calc.,PH and alk. and then go from there.Randy emailed me with the same answers to my questions and I'm going to check out that article buy Craig Bingman.Thanks everyone,always trying to learn more about this hobby.
 

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