Has anyone experienced this lately? A friend of mine lost 10+ in a 72-hour period. I'm just trying to get a feel for how serious this pathogen is + its distribution... From what I've gathered it wipes out all Tridacna clams in a very, very short amount of time. Also, if possible include whether or not you've experienced if the pathogen stays alive in the water without clams, and any other pertinent info.
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Total clam annihilation!
- Thread starter NKT
- Start date
Apparently it's going around. Depending on who you talk to or what you read, it's either a major epidemic or not a big deal as long as you're not getting anything from Pohnpei. Word has it that there are suppliers in the Fiji area that have lost thousands of clams to this disease. I talked at length with Barry from Clamsdirect.net last week who informed me that his clams which he had recently obtained are ok. I purchased 3 from him that arrived last friday. As of today, all are healthy (and in my main tank)with no signs of anything strange going on. Barry is one of the best dealers to work with, and he is very upfront and sincere. I have made several purchases from him in the past few months, and only had one 'tear drop' maxima die within hours of me placing it in my reef (this was about 1 month ago). Fortunately nothing else died (I have 15 total maxima/croceas), and Barry credited me for the loss immediately. However, it seems that there have been lots of problems with that type of max recently, and maybe the reason for the problem. There are several posts on this and other sites about reefers losing entire colonies of clams. If there is a clam that you absolutely must have and don't want to risk wiping out your collection, you may want to consider quarantining it for a few weeks.
I have had similar problems several times - clams dying for no apparent reason, one after the other. There was a recent post on this and several people had the same problem. In my case, there were no water quality problems, no little white snails, and no large worms. I left my tank free of clams for several months and them bought a few more, only to see the same thing happen. Although I love clams, I will not put any more in my tank for fear of this happening again.
Sorry, but I have one more thing to say. I think that this problem, whether it is a bacterial infection or a predator which we do not know of, is more prevalent than most people will admit. Nobody wants to post that all their clams have died, because a sudden onlslaught of questions ensues, like "what is your pH" or "what is your calcium level". The other recent post went on like that, but most of the people who had these problems sounded like experienced reefers who would look to those parameters first. It is against the interest of stores who sell clams to admit to this problem, and so I don't think that we know the exact extent of it. I would like to ask all those who have had mysterious clam deaths to reply here, so that we can determine if this is an isolated problem for some of us, or if this is a more serious situation.
Clams are very hardy animals and the only thing that clould explain a mass mortality in a very short time is some toxins of some kind. A sick clam will show it by not opening properly and will take weeks to finally give up. there are many marine toxins and many are not biodegradable and/or very selective. The best thing I could suggest to multiple clam owners that have sudden unexplained mortalities is to do a maximum (90 to 95%) waterchange as soon as possible, preferably immediately after the first problem. I have never lost anything after such big waterchanges but I have to mention I was using natural seawater. Good luck Phil
local reef shop in vancouver wa." Deep Sea Gallery " had massive clam die of last weekend. the owner explained it happening overnite. clam tank looked normal at closing time, by morning all clams were dead and fouling the system. there was however talk of elevated system temp. that week.
Along with a water change, the use of activated carbon should clear out many probable 'toxins' from the water. I would not agree with Phill however in that it couldn't be a pathogen. Many viral pathogens could wreak havoc on closed or flow thru systems. A single infected clam could release enough viral particles to infect anything downstream It is very possible. I wouldn't expect this to be an issue 6 months down the road in a tank thats been tridacnid free in that time. But some are known to infect other like organisms, even if in a manner that doesn't cause their death, but can still reinfect.
At any rate, heavy carbon, heavy water changes, and good skimming should clear most toxins from the water column.
Wade
At any rate, heavy carbon, heavy water changes, and good skimming should clear most toxins from the water column.
Wade
This problem seems rampant and growing.
My tank experienced a complete clam wipeout 3 months ago. In light of how wide-spread this problem is, and that I can't think of how toxins were introduced, I highly doubt it was a clam-specific toxin/toxicant. Clam deaths were rapid, without much time between symptoms and death. A perfectly healthy clam will first begin gaping. Some people report mucus secretions through its exhalant, but I did not observe this. Shortly thereafter, the clam's mantle shows signs of detachment from the shell (severe gaping), and mortality ensues. The elasped time between symptom and death is between 2 and 48 hours .... very fast. And once one clam in a closed system succombs to the disease, all in the system quickly die within a very short amount of time (< two weeks). It's a devasting disease, whatever the origin may be.
People have blamed Phonapei clams as the vector. While this may be true, my clams died even although no new clams were introduced for several months. What led to my mass mortality was an introduction of a coral. This leads me to believe that the pathogen is water-bourne and can be transmitted via very small volume of saltwater or via other organisms. Further complicating the situation, it can exist in the water for weeks after the initial outbreak; I added 2 more clams about 5 weeks later, and both succumbed to the same disease in a short matter of time.
In light of my experiences, advice given on other boards for quarentine and/or not buying Phonapei clams as a safeguard against this disease would seem to be ineffective. If the infected clam's water touches any system's water during it's chain of custody (collector, distributor, wholesaler, LFS, etc.), I believe that water to be tainted. You can imagine how widespread this disease has become if this is true.
Now the important question remains: How long does this pathogen stay in the water without a proper host? And are there any effective treatments?
I hear analysis is currently being done on infected clams, and results will be available shortly. If I find out anything, i'll post them here. People have also suggested that this disease has been previously identified as a Vibrio bacterium (supposed Knop isolated the pathogen). I haven't verified this, but it seems plausible.
My tank experienced a complete clam wipeout 3 months ago. In light of how wide-spread this problem is, and that I can't think of how toxins were introduced, I highly doubt it was a clam-specific toxin/toxicant. Clam deaths were rapid, without much time between symptoms and death. A perfectly healthy clam will first begin gaping. Some people report mucus secretions through its exhalant, but I did not observe this. Shortly thereafter, the clam's mantle shows signs of detachment from the shell (severe gaping), and mortality ensues. The elasped time between symptom and death is between 2 and 48 hours .... very fast. And once one clam in a closed system succombs to the disease, all in the system quickly die within a very short amount of time (< two weeks). It's a devasting disease, whatever the origin may be.
People have blamed Phonapei clams as the vector. While this may be true, my clams died even although no new clams were introduced for several months. What led to my mass mortality was an introduction of a coral. This leads me to believe that the pathogen is water-bourne and can be transmitted via very small volume of saltwater or via other organisms. Further complicating the situation, it can exist in the water for weeks after the initial outbreak; I added 2 more clams about 5 weeks later, and both succumbed to the same disease in a short matter of time.
In light of my experiences, advice given on other boards for quarentine and/or not buying Phonapei clams as a safeguard against this disease would seem to be ineffective. If the infected clam's water touches any system's water during it's chain of custody (collector, distributor, wholesaler, LFS, etc.), I believe that water to be tainted. You can imagine how widespread this disease has become if this is true.
Now the important question remains: How long does this pathogen stay in the water without a proper host? And are there any effective treatments?
I hear analysis is currently being done on infected clams, and results will be available shortly. If I find out anything, i'll post them here. People have also suggested that this disease has been previously identified as a Vibrio bacterium (supposed Knop isolated the pathogen). I haven't verified this, but it seems plausible.
Yes Vibrios are quite common in the animal world and real nasty, but if vibrios are killing these clams, they would kill any other bivalve kept in those tanks. Did any body kept other bivalves, and if not this could be an interesting test to do: put some oysters or mussels in the tank after the clam mortality to see what would happen??? Toxins can come from any dead animal, or from a spawning of a coral or invert which one may not have witnessed! From my experiences in aquaculture, rotting eggs and sperm from anything is really very toxic, and in the small confinement of a tank polyspremy will always occur, and polyspermy means death. This mystery will have to be solved preferably sooner than later. Phil
There has been much discussion regarding clam death on another BB. Some good results have been done with doxycycline.
Someone mailed me a water sample in which several clams died and the results showed no bacteria infection in the water.
Have visited with many wholesalers in LA and they have not experenced any massive loses like discribed in these threads. I can only speak for myself, have not had any loses at all other than 1 clam died out of 43 that I received on the 15th of this month. I hold all my clams from 7-10 days before shipping and sometimes longer. A very few clams died after a customer received them but I think that was related to shipping stress or acclimating. Out of the 43 clams that I received I have shipped 32 and 3 have been reported as dying. I know we lose more clams durning the summer than in the cooler times of the year shipping.
Most of the clams that were/are dying was up in northern ca. and a few isolated cases in other areas. I have never had a Pohnpei clam in my tanks so I can not say much about that other than the people up north told me that is what started the chain reaction but then again it could have been something else that the clams picked up and then carried with them.
Have suggested many times, it is a good idea to quarantine anything before introducing into the main/display tank. In most reported cases, clams will die within the first 3 days as that is another reason why I hold them for 7-10 days.
I would also like to address the "gaping " issues as well. IME gaping doesn't mean that a clam is doomed to die. I have had several clams that I would not ship as they were gaping more than I liked but after a few days most would be fine. I had one T. Crocea that I had a "HOLD" on for 3 weeks and finally decided not to sell and placed him in my display tank, that was 2.5 months ago. He has attached, extends mantles well, retracts to movement and still gaps the size of a quarter. Keeping most clams, I have also noticed that T. Crocea will gap more than others, such as Maxima's or Derasa's.
I would recommend that if someone has had several clams died within a short period of time, I would not re-stock for at least 3 months. JMO Doing good water changes and adding some carbon like someothers on this thread has mentiioned.
Someone mailed me a water sample in which several clams died and the results showed no bacteria infection in the water.
Have visited with many wholesalers in LA and they have not experenced any massive loses like discribed in these threads. I can only speak for myself, have not had any loses at all other than 1 clam died out of 43 that I received on the 15th of this month. I hold all my clams from 7-10 days before shipping and sometimes longer. A very few clams died after a customer received them but I think that was related to shipping stress or acclimating. Out of the 43 clams that I received I have shipped 32 and 3 have been reported as dying. I know we lose more clams durning the summer than in the cooler times of the year shipping.
Most of the clams that were/are dying was up in northern ca. and a few isolated cases in other areas. I have never had a Pohnpei clam in my tanks so I can not say much about that other than the people up north told me that is what started the chain reaction but then again it could have been something else that the clams picked up and then carried with them.
Have suggested many times, it is a good idea to quarantine anything before introducing into the main/display tank. In most reported cases, clams will die within the first 3 days as that is another reason why I hold them for 7-10 days.
I would also like to address the "gaping " issues as well. IME gaping doesn't mean that a clam is doomed to die. I have had several clams that I would not ship as they were gaping more than I liked but after a few days most would be fine. I had one T. Crocea that I had a "HOLD" on for 3 weeks and finally decided not to sell and placed him in my display tank, that was 2.5 months ago. He has attached, extends mantles well, retracts to movement and still gaps the size of a quarter. Keeping most clams, I have also noticed that T. Crocea will gap more than others, such as Maxima's or Derasa's.
I would recommend that if someone has had several clams died within a short period of time, I would not re-stock for at least 3 months. JMO Doing good water changes and adding some carbon like someothers on this thread has mentiioned.
A couple of ideas to throw out:
If antibiotics have been shown to be effective in treating some of the diseased clams, that gives me 90%+ confidence that bacteria is the primary agent.
If bacteria is the the culprit, water changes won't liekly help. However, if toxins are the problem, water changes will make a big difference.
The gaping described by those with infected clams is very severe ... not the run-of-the-mill gaping we see from stressed clams (e.g. post-shipping).
Hobbyist may be lumping two or more diseases together. Some observe heavy mucus secretions as the primary symptom, while others (myself included) observe severe gaping as the initial sign of disease. Some report success with doxycycline, while others say antibiotics is useless. It's possible that there are multiple diseases going around (e.g. toxins, bacterial, viral, etc.)
I don't know the life cycle or virulency of the said pathogens. They may take weeks to become symptomatic (once symptomatic, clam dies in a very short period of time). This may be one possible explanation why transhippers/wholesalers aren't reporting mass mortality.
FWIW, inhabitants of tank spawn regularly. I've never had a problem with the spawn; I usually perform a 25% water change after spawning, and use polyfilters and carbon intensively for 2 weeks following.
Barry:
What procedure did you use to conclude no bacteria was present?
If antibiotics have been shown to be effective in treating some of the diseased clams, that gives me 90%+ confidence that bacteria is the primary agent.
If bacteria is the the culprit, water changes won't liekly help. However, if toxins are the problem, water changes will make a big difference.
The gaping described by those with infected clams is very severe ... not the run-of-the-mill gaping we see from stressed clams (e.g. post-shipping).
Hobbyist may be lumping two or more diseases together. Some observe heavy mucus secretions as the primary symptom, while others (myself included) observe severe gaping as the initial sign of disease. Some report success with doxycycline, while others say antibiotics is useless. It's possible that there are multiple diseases going around (e.g. toxins, bacterial, viral, etc.)
I don't know the life cycle or virulency of the said pathogens. They may take weeks to become symptomatic (once symptomatic, clam dies in a very short period of time). This may be one possible explanation why transhippers/wholesalers aren't reporting mass mortality.
FWIW, inhabitants of tank spawn regularly. I've never had a problem with the spawn; I usually perform a 25% water change after spawning, and use polyfilters and carbon intensively for 2 weeks following.
Barry:
What procedure did you use to conclude no bacteria was present?
Thank you all for openly discussing this issue. Leonard, I would like to address the time interval that people have waited. In January of this year, I lost 14 clams over a 2 - 3 week period, all of which had been thriving and growing their shells. Some time in early March (I want to forget the day) my 500g tank accidentally drained to 1" above the sand. In an emergency effort to try to save some corals, since I do not have an LFS or other tank to transfer them to, I filled the tank over 4 hrs with tap water and salt, however the temperature dropped into the 60's. This killed virtually every coral, fish, and other animals in the tank which were not already dead. Two months later, after the tank was again reasonable stable and SPS, LPS corals and fish were doing well, I tried 3 more clams (derasa, squamosa, maxima) Within 2 weeks, the same sudden gaping and death ensued. This leads me to believe that whatever the problem is , it is very tenacious is not killed itself very easily. I doubt that it is a bacteria since every time that I have had this problem, clams died almost one at a time. In a bacterial outbreak, you would expect a logarythmic pattern. I have a feeling that it is an individual organism or organisms which move through the tank unnoticed.
Thansk Barry.
texman:
My clams did not all die in succession. I lost 4 clams within the same hour, and so doubt they were being predated by an indivudal organism (I'm guessing you suspect some animal species). Some clams survived longer then others, but this could be due to many variables (clam's inherent immunity, health, location, etc.).
I inspected the dead and dying specimens and could not find any signs of predation.
Just my ideas ....
texman:
My clams did not all die in succession. I lost 4 clams within the same hour, and so doubt they were being predated by an indivudal organism (I'm guessing you suspect some animal species). Some clams survived longer then others, but this could be due to many variables (clam's inherent immunity, health, location, etc.).
I inspected the dead and dying specimens and could not find any signs of predation.
Just my ideas ....
This is sounding more and more like a bacterial issue. Which, in many cases can survive over long periods of time without being harmful to other organisms. This said, there are 2 ways in which a bacteria might be cause over these time frames:
First, it could be living in the tank as a non-toxic or as a non-pathogenic strain. It could be living in the detritus, or mucous of a coral, etc and not causing damage. When another clam is placed into the tank, its presence can allow the bacteria to multiply (sounds like it might be in direct association with the clam) or generate toxins. Keep in mind, some algaes (dinoflagellates specifically) feed this way... they have cyst, ameoba, and other forms.
Second, it could be due to reintroduction by our contact with the tank. It would not surprise me to find out that many cases of RTN in our tanks are due to bacteria carried into the tank on dirty hands/arms. The white pox disease in FL is a good example.
Or, it could be viral.... virus particles can exist in a more or less 'benign' state, although its more rare to find.
I am doubting "toxin" however. Unless its a toxin elaborated from an algae or other life form in the tank, which is possible. Especially if produced in proximity to the clam itself. It wouldn't explain Len's loss due to a coral introduction either.
Just my $0.04.
Wade
First, it could be living in the tank as a non-toxic or as a non-pathogenic strain. It could be living in the detritus, or mucous of a coral, etc and not causing damage. When another clam is placed into the tank, its presence can allow the bacteria to multiply (sounds like it might be in direct association with the clam) or generate toxins. Keep in mind, some algaes (dinoflagellates specifically) feed this way... they have cyst, ameoba, and other forms.
Second, it could be due to reintroduction by our contact with the tank. It would not surprise me to find out that many cases of RTN in our tanks are due to bacteria carried into the tank on dirty hands/arms. The white pox disease in FL is a good example.
Or, it could be viral.... virus particles can exist in a more or less 'benign' state, although its more rare to find.
I am doubting "toxin" however. Unless its a toxin elaborated from an algae or other life form in the tank, which is possible. Especially if produced in proximity to the clam itself. It wouldn't explain Len's loss due to a coral introduction either.
Just my $0.04.
Wade
I live in the Vancouver Canada area and on a local BB we have been discussing how many of us has lost our clams over the past month. It must be something that they are doing when removing them from the waters. I say this since the hobby has been able to keep them going for years.
Interesting.
Patrick
Interesting.
Patrick
I will be attempting several cultured clams again to see if the pathogen is still extant in my tank after 3 months. I'll report how things go. If clams become symptomatic (hopefully not), I will also experiment with various antibiotics for their effectiveness.
Another pertinent part of the puzzle is when I mixed a small volume of water (a few ml) from my 120 gallon into my 10 gallon reef, the solitary clam in the 10 gallon reef suffered the same fate as those in the large system. Further basis for my theory for water-bourne transmission (and against toxins being the cause).
I have had this disaster wipe out my clams back starting at the end of February, beginning of March. I did add new clams but thought they were from a reputable seller. It was only after this that within 14 days they started dying. Mine died 1 at a time but from the time the clam showed signs of stress..gapping it was dead within 24-48 hours. This went on until for about 10 days I lost none and having 4 left I thought the battle was won. Nope, it started all over again and went on til I had 1 T. derasa left. This derasa never has shown any signs of problems. I left the tank{my 120} with only the derasa and no other clams til about 6 weeks ago and have added 2 of Barry's clams and they have been awesome. I had had these clams in my 180 though for several weeks before. Four of the clams that died I had had for over 3 years.
I freaked during this and not knowing what to do emailed Daniel Knop. He graciously replied and thought of all the info I give him, it to be bacterial. He also made the statement that doing any research was not financially feasible. Maybe now that so many clams have been lost someone will think they are worthy of saving. Mr. Knop was so nice to take the time to email me and give the only help he could.
my 180 ecosystem sps/clam tank:
http://berlinmethod.com/suet/
my 120 ecosystem sps/clam tank:
http://suetruett.homestead.com/home.html
I freaked during this and not knowing what to do emailed Daniel Knop. He graciously replied and thought of all the info I give him, it to be bacterial. He also made the statement that doing any research was not financially feasible. Maybe now that so many clams have been lost someone will think they are worthy of saving. Mr. Knop was so nice to take the time to email me and give the only help he could.
my 180 ecosystem sps/clam tank:
http://berlinmethod.com/suet/
my 120 ecosystem sps/clam tank:
http://suetruett.homestead.com/home.html
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