Upgraded tank problem. Dinos? Copper? Help!

[Anonymous]

I recently set up my 150 with a 5 inch aragonite bed, and some quasi cured live rock.
I started seeing some dead peanut and bristle worms and though it was just regular cycling. I noticed some floating pods in the water too. Figgured the same. I added a couple of snails from my current tank and they rolled and died. I added some more live rock and some crabs and snails on it died. There have been what appear dinoflagellates, and I am leaving the tank in the dark for a few day to see if they die back.
When the inverts die, they roll over and lose coordination. They get twichy. It sometimes take a couple of days for them to die.
Ammonia, nitrate and nitrite have been at 0 the entire time, about 2 weeks. Ph is 8.4, temp 79, dkh 9. SG 34. All the water was rodi with kent salt.
I thought copper, but 2 different tests say no.
I don't remember worms and pods dying when I set up my other tank.
I started running polyfitler and carbon.
Can dinos kill so thououghly in non plague amounts? Is this just regular cycling and I am being hit harder than last time? Any other thoughts?
Sorry for the long post, but I am getting worried my new baby is flawed.

RR

 

[Anonymous]

seems wierd that the ammonia cycle hasn't spiked if in fact all inverts are dying, doesn't it? i wonder what would happen if you put a vertebrate in there? if it lived i would guess copper as you already have, or maybe another nonferrous metal.



hth, though i doubt it.

 

[aquarist=broke]

I have had that happen before!!! Totally true, and I went to every LFS in town and they were all puzzled. Water parameters were very good. Snails would just close up and never come out again. I believe it was from putting some smelly rock in my tank at the startup. I didn't know much about keeping marine fish or rock back then. After struggling to keep snails alive for many months(at least two), I ended up mixing fresh saltwater then emptying the tank of fish, rock, and substrate. Scrubbed the rock in fresh saltwater(really scrubbed everything from the rocks), filled the tank back up with new substrate and water.

I tell you what. The snails stayed alive, but the substrate started growing black stringy slime, dinof. were out of control, and the sensitive fish all died. If you are not too deep into your current tank, I'd recommend starting over.

Trust me, nobody's going to know what's happening to your tank except those who have delt with it. If my experiences sound similar to yours, I feel for you.

 

[aquarist=broke]

I should've mentioned that the LFS and I figured it wasn't copper because I had an abundance of feather dusters and some zooanthids growing. I didn't have a digi cam, back then, but I did snap a somewhat decent pic of the black stuff. It looks like that cayano(sp?), but it was black and would come back after siphoning it out.

 

[SPC]

Sorry to hear about this Righty. It sure sounds like a poisoning (alot like copper) to me, I'll give it a bump anyway.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Steve,

It feels like copper to me too, but both test kits come back negitive. The poly fiter is changing color. There is at least one bristle worm living in the sand digging tunnles - which seems to discount the copper idea.

Maybe just dino problems. Or maybe the SG was way to high compared to what the critters were used to.

Arggh.

RR

 

[SPC]

There is at least one bristle worm living in the sand digging tunnles - which seems to discount the copper idea.

-Yes I agree, this should rule out copper.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Righty-

what color is the polyfilter changing to?

 

[Anonymous]

I will let you know about the polyfilter color as soon as my wife gets home. I don't see color too well. I put a new on in yesterday, and the old one was 'brownish', but I think that is mostly from silt. I put a filter pad in front of the new one to avoid this confusion.

For fun, I added a pasta worm - I can't spell spegetti - from my other tank to the new tank, and it seems to be doing fine.

This sucks. Thanks for talking with me about it.

RR

 

[Anonymous]

Vitz,

The poly filter is turning brownish beigeish. Not green.

I changed all the water in the system today. Figgured that was an easy step to try.

RR

 

[Anonymous]

well, i think that rules out copper, or iron, at least.i do know that the color the poly filter changes to indicates, usually, what metal it's absorbing.

(you may be able to get a 'color list' from the company)

i think the water change was an excellent idea.

did you transfer any appreciable amount of substrate from the previous tank?or is it possible there was any residue of sort in the new tank?

(i realize you prob'ly did think of all this stuff prior to the transfer-just thinking maybe you overlooked something, by accident :wink: )

 

[Anonymous]

well, i think that rules out copper, or iron, at least.i do know that the color the poly filter changes to indicates, usually, what metal it's absorbing.

(you may be able to get a 'color list' from the company)

Here is the list:

Another important and patented feature of the "Poly Filter" is its unique ability to change a different color with the absorption of specific pollutants. It turns blue with a copper salt, light green to aqua with free copper, orange with iron, red with aluminum, yellowish green with ammonia and white to beige to brown to black with the absorption of harmful organics. This unique feature not only assures the hobbyist that the "Poly Filter" is functioning but helps him to monitor changes in water conditions and tells him when to replace the filter.

I looks like harmful organics if the poly filter is to be believed.

 

i think the water change was an excellent idea.

Thanks. It seemed like the cheapest most effective fastest way to make a change.

did you transfer any appreciable amount of substrate from the previous tank?or is it possible there was any residue of sort in the new tank?

Not too much substrate at all. I don't think there was any residue at all, and if there was it should be gone wiht the water change. Hopefully. Perhaps there was something nasty in some of the live rock I added.

(i realize you prob'ly did think of all this stuff prior to the transfer-just thinking maybe you overlooked something, by accident :wink: )

Please keep the ideas commin'. I decided to do the complete water change due to this thread. Any thoughts would be helpful.

RR

 

[Anonymous]

Well here is a better list.
Anyone know the deadly effects of tannins or humic acid?

RR

Light  tan  to  brown  over several  weeks normal  organic  (TOC s)
Brown  coloration  in  new  water heavy  concentrations  of  tannins/humic acid
Dark  brown Poly-Filter  feels  heavier  in  weight ,   organic  carbons
Aqua  colored free copper  ions
Blue  coloration copper  salts
Orange - Red iron
Red aluminum  from  water  treatments. Alumina  is   white  or  light grey
Red (disease  treatment)  antibiotics  or  dyes
Yellow NH3 , amines  or  complexed  amines
Grey lead  ,  or  cadmium ,  zinc
Brownish Red Mercury
Black Heavy  Organic  loads  or   high concentration   of Manganese
Phosphates do  not  show  coloration  unless complexed  with metals
Volatile  Organic  Chemicals chemical smell in filter
Organo  Phosphate/Insectidices slight  yellowish-blue  coloration  at concentration   over 1.0mg/L  in  filter

 

[Anonymous]

Righty wrote:

Anyone know the deadly effects of tannins or humic acid?

i'm trying to figger out what would cause them in a salt water tank to begin with...i'm pretty sure that tannins and humic acid are the result of (usually)decaying plant matter.any (even faint) smells coming from the tank?(tannins are very prevalent in leaves)

fwiw-i would think that they would also affect your pH.

any chance you water processing(rodi) unit is outta whack?

 

[Anonymous]

Sure there are some smells comming from the tank, but who know what they are. Weird. I did have some mangrove pods in the sump. They were rooting, not rotting.
I am thinking maybe some weird residue in the tank, or dinos. Can they be lethal in small blooms?
PH has been fine.
It is possible the rodi water was wacked. However, I did you some of mine for top off in my other tank and the water I got from the store is used by them with no ill effects.

Can anyone recommend a good canary for my coal mine?

RR

 

[Anonymous]

try a condy anemone (cheap)

fwiw-no smells should be coming from your tank, other than maybe a faint tinge of iodine, from the sw itself.

smells usually indicate a decomposition of organics issue...

 

[ReefLion]

The best canary I can think of is a single small mushroom, preferably attached to a rock. Hardy, cheap and plentiful. I had a new tank go through a weird stage like this several years ago. My best guess at the time was dinoflagellates.

Tim

 

[SPC]

Sure there are some smells comming from the tank, but who know what they are.

Can you be a bit more specific as to the smell Righty? Dead oyster, compost in the back yard, skimmer crap, middle finger :lol: .

Can anyone recommend a good canary for my coal mine?

-I believe snails are the cheapest and best indicator.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Smelled like my middle finger .

Kinda organicy. Not too bad at all, I just chalked it up to semi cured rock. Now with the new water, it don't smell much like anything.

Tim,

How bad was your dino bloom? Also, any other detail you can remember would be interesting.

RR

 

[aquarist=broke]

Have you put any snails back into the tank yet?

I hope things go better for you now...