Overskimming??? (Lengthy)

[madrefkepr]

I have a 65 Gallon tank, 1"cc, approx 80 lbs LR, 2 penguin 650 Powerheads, Precision Marine HOT-1 skimmer, (2) 30 watt Triton and (1) 30 watt Blue Moon bulbs. Short on light, I know, working on a canopy with PC's. Lights on 14 hours a day. Only current residents are 20 Blue leg hermits, 6 Astreas (12 recently died), and 1 CBS. I slightly overfeed the CBS frozen shrimp (pods need to eat too, right), and put a pinch of flake food in 2X a week. Only add Seachem reef builder and calcium. All water parameters are nominal (calcium stays constant at 420). I am skimming heavy (about 3/8 inch black liquid in collection cup every day. Set-up is 4 months old.

I used to have a form of macro-algae (I think) that grew everywhere. It was red, about 4mm in diameter, looked like it had a crown on top, and usually grew about 1cm long before my snails would mow it down. Then it would grow right back. (sorry, don't know too much about macro). It no longer grows anywhere. My coralline was blooming, but has leveled off. Have a trace of red hair algae, but is not spreading. Otherwise, I am hard pressed to find any algae at all. Hermits and shrimp doing fine, Snails kind of lathargic (maybe not getting enough to eat? Maybe that's why the others died?).

Question is, could I be overskimming the tank? And, for the sake of debate, is it possible to overskim a tank at all. I always thought it wasn't, but am not so sure.

Would very much like your input!

Dave

 

[Bill2]

Doesn't sound like much is wrong. I've noticed in my tank the dominate algea changes over time. I first started with sargassum, then switched to grape caulerpa and now it seem halimeda is doing the best.

The one thing that does bother me is why did 12 snails die all at once? Sometimes when your tank is in a grove and something stops it, it can take a while to recover and get back into the grove.

 

[madrefkepr]

I should have mentioned about the snails. I recently had to transfer everything into a new tank ( old one was leaking). My thought is that since I put all the astreas into a container that must have had something bad in it, because they all died within a couple of days. Everything else has been fine. The 6 snails I have now I have added since then.

 

[Garry thomas]

Skimming seems to be the most misunderstood part of marine keeping? skimming happens in nature also could the sea be overskimmed? no. back to your tank i'm not aware of that skimmer, its not available over in blighty anyway! you will not overskim, you would see an improvment if you HAD a better skimmer though, algy can only survive if it has the nutriants. IE remove nutriantes by > by algy
GT s wales

 

[ChrisRD]

Question is, could I be overskimming the tank? And, for the sake of debate, is it possible to overskim a tank at all. I always thought it wasn't, but am not so sure.

Although I feel there are very few "absolutes" in this hobby, I'm comfortable saying there is no-way you're overskimming a 65 gallon tank with a hang-on skimmer.

 

[Anonymous]

I've never done a reef (except to get wet and visit) and I'm only working on getting my first started, so take this for what it's worth...

My understanding of the entire skimming process is that it relies on having stuff in the water to cause a froth. That could be good stuff, could be bad stuff I don't know.. But just like Garry mentioned, skimming happens in nature.. - Think: whitecaps..

Where I think the concept of overskimming probably comes from is it that if there's no "bad stuff" to skim off, you could be removing "good stuff".. Like, calcium or other beneficial nutrients.

What I do (with my fish-only tanks) is just watch the surface. If bubbles are sitting there and not popping clear, I'm running the skimmer to catch those bubbles and scrape 'em out.. Once the surface looks clear (ironically, the same time that the skimmer stops being effective) it's time to cut off the skimmer.

Just remember, all this is coming from someone without jack for chemistry knowledge and has only done fish-only up to this point.... But, the only two creatures I've ever lost were an anem and a star that croaked because my EX wife cranked the heat up past 90 one night.. - Yeah, you know why she's my ex........ :wink:

 

[Garry thomas]

Pretty good answer my friend? as i said earlier it happens in nature, see the scum on the surface after a storm?that it man your natural skimmer. I dont wont to argue the fact BUT skimming does more than just remove muck? what about saturating the water with oxygen, to name just 1. I really believe a skimmer is there to be run 24/7 not just when you think or need be? As for overskimming it wont remove calcium but to an extent trace elements are! this is why on a heavily skimmed tank you will need more trace elements, iodine ect
And also with a skimmer you can use the master......ozone. but thats another story!
GT s wales

 

[madrefkepr]

Thanks to all who have replied. I don't think it is possible to remove too much "bad" stuff from the water. My concern was mainly removing too much "good stuff". Not being one who likes to add anything I don't have to (I don't want to open the floodgates here, But IMHO it should not be necessary to add trace, etc), I wondered if I could be removing enough to halt all algae growth. Obviously this would not happen in nature, but is the natural bioload as light as I have in my tank right now?

Dave

 

[madrefkepr]

Okay, that last statement is one of the most absurd things I have said in quite some time. (Note to self: do not attempt to think before having first cup of coffee in morning) What I meant was, even with the light bioload I have in my tank, would it still not be possible to overskim?

 

[krusty_krab]

Hey

I am a noob too- trying to understand the skim thing. I think I have a considerable bioload for my tank, but my skimmer(s) go nuts when I feed, and really only then. They usually dont skim except for when I have food in the tank.

Not saying I am doing it right, just reporting what I see right now...

KK

 

[wombat1]

If you're new to reefing, get a skimmer. However, a lot of folks think it IS possible to overskim the water. A good skimmer removes lots of planktonic life that feeds our corals, besides the (posssibly) beneficial organics and trace elements.
GT wrote:

skimming happens in nature also could the sea be overskimmed?

I don't think skimming happens in nature by wave action nearly as much as in our tanks. Also, the "froth" is never removed from the system in nature like it is in our tanks. Good oxygen levels can easily be maintained w/o a skimmer by surface agitation and lots of water movement.

 

[Garry thomas]

Listen we are all right and wrong we know that skimming is good? but we know skimming removes goodies as well but i think cutting a compromise is better IE: i would rather have to put ads in but knowing that all crap ect removed from my tank.as i'v said skimming is far more beneficial than just removing crap. i personally love useing ozone in my skimmer 200mg's, which is only a small dose for a 500 gallon + tank, and before the cynics out there start telling me about killing good things as well as bad, I KNOW but it works for me. I feel much safer with the high bio load i have , 86 fish in a reef tank, this is why i have a huge skimmer and the 03. also i dont run carbon,the o3 keeps the water like crystal. CARBON , But thats another story. CONCLUSION Get the best skimmer you can get, run it 24/7 and you Will have a stunning tank. i hope i havent babbled on to much

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with you for the most part Gary. However, I wouldn't equate the tiny amount of froth on the surface of the ocean which is billions of gallons, with running a skimmer on a tiny closed system which creates massive amounts of foam. You'd need a skimmer the size of Texas to even make a comparison with the ocean!
The foam you see in nature is inconsequential the organics found on a natural reef. Not so in captivity, and I run tanks skimmerless that do just fine, as well as tanks with massive skimming that do fine also. The jury is still out on this one.
Regards
Jim

 

[SPC]

Posted by Jim:

and I run tanks skimmerless that do just fine, as well as tanks with massive skimming that do fine also. The jury is still out on this one.

-If the skimmerless tanks do "just fine", why would you ever run a skimmer Jim?
Steve

 

[wombat1]

I think it depends on your corals as well. I think soft corals will probably do better in a well maintained skimmerless tank than in a skimmed tank. I wouldn't personally try to put SPS corals in a skimmerless tank, but Eric Borneman seems to have great success with it. There are many methods of nutrient export that don't remove plankton.

 

[Anonymous]

To (probably mis-) quote from "Tommy Boy":

"I could sell you a steak by shoving your head up a bulls ass, but wouldn't you rather take a butchers word for it?"

Unless one of us here is a Nobel prize holding Marine biologist who won his/her prize from work related to this very topic, whatever works, works.. There's far too much variation in the oceans for all of us to really give a scientifically correct statement on any of it.

And yes, for the most part, I would have to agree that "natural skimming" doesn't occur on most reefs to the extent that it does in our tanks. HOWEVER.... I know from personal experience that some reefs DO get a LOT of turbidity on a constant basis that would probably exceed the ratio that typically occurs in our tanks.

To generalize any of it would not do justice to the varied regions and specific locations that exist in the oceans.

After doing a search on one of my personal favorite dive spots (in the Tounge of the Ocean) I came up with this interesting topic:

http://www.iantd.com/rebreather/tz.html

In essence, depending on what depth zone/specific location you're creating in your personal tank, you could very easily overskim, or you might be very hard pressed to equal the skimming action that occurs naturally. It all depends on what you have in the tank and the equipment you have hooked up to it.

The closest thing that I can think of to generalize any of it with, is simply this: Pay close attention to what you're doing for the species that you're working with and act accordingly. If you find that you're having to constantly add nutrients, more so than others you know of with similar configurations, then maybe you're overskimming. Otherwise, as far as I know, it's a good idea to run it pretty regularly.

Everyone's situation is different and requires different solutions to arrive at what is best for the creatures they are caring for. If you can attune yourself to nature quickly, you're probably a lot more likely to have better success earlier on. Otherwise it's going to be a painful learning experience for both your pocket book and your creatures.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm going off here, but I really don't think that any of us are fully capable of answering this question with complete competence.

 

[SPC]

Posted by Gratefuldiver:

If you find that you're having to constantly add nutrients, more so than others you know of with similar configurations, then maybe you're overskimming.

-What "nutrients" would you be referring to here?
Steve

 

[ChrisRD]

FWIW, I don't presume to know whether it's better to skim or not, but I don't see the logic in comparing our small, closed systems to a vast open system like the ocean as a comparison/justification to go skimmer/skimmerless. Apples to oranges IMO.

 

[madrefkepr]

Have decided to try an experiment. I have adjusted my skimmer so that I am only colecting about half of what I was. Although I am not so closed minded that I think doing this is necessarily the answer, I'll be interested in seeing what happens over the next couple of weeks. I do realize that If algae starts blooming like mad, it could be do to factors other than how heavy I am skimming.
Interesting concept, skimming taking place in the ocean. I'm not so sure that it takes place in the sense that the organic matter is not really removed? Although foaming does occur, in my opinion the foam breaks down on the beach, tide comes in, and everything gets washed back into the ocean. I don't claim to be an expert or anything, but wouldn't this make sense?

 

[wombat1]

gratefuldiver wrote:

I know from personal experience that some reefs DO get a LOT of turbidity on a constant basis that would probably exceed the ratio that typically occurs in our tanks.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you here. The water movement and flow (Is this what you meant by turbidity??) is much greater on any reef than even the highest flow reef tanks. However, skimming is the REMOVAL of the foam produced by vigorous aeration. I just don't see where it's being removed in the ocean...
wolfman wrote:

but I don't see the logic in comparing our small, closed systems to a vast open system like the ocean

Maybe I'm taking you out of context here...sorry if I am. What about the use of LR and DSBs? Don't these try to imitate the ocean?