Mutant clownfish!

[Minh Nguyen]

Selective breeding for certain trait is not wrong, IMO. We have done if for eons with domesticated animals. Some people like the result more than other. Personally, I don't like most of it but I do like the Red Tiger Oscar more than the wild type. I tend to dislike any trait that cause atanomic deformities to the animal. I have no problem with coloration unless it is albino and the like.
I guess my opinion is the same as that of Ernie.

 

[dizzy]

some food for thought:
the drive for 'mutant' species marketing is for the most part, consumer driven.

Vitz I would have to argue that aquaculture is creating the demand by offering these mutants for sale. Same thing with hybrid gobies. People aren't coming into to my store and saying: "Well I sort of think those salt fish are attractive, but I guess I'll wait on a tank until they can inbreed some albino true perks. Or gosh that yellow tang is pretty, but would it be possible to get one in pink." IMO it is marine aquaculture for all the wrong reasons.

If people want to condone intentional manipulation of animals there is no law against it. We have hybrid Mac Caws and albino milk snakes. We have our loveable tiny little dogs that piss on the floor and cats with no hair. Even zoos breed White Siberian Tigers and Albino aligators. Hey mules helped to build this country and we all know what they are.

I think the selectively bred seahorses are very nice and please don't anyone call them hybrid. I can't take anymore defensive articles on the subject. (recent FAMA)

oranje you really did open a can of worms. It really throws a monkey wrench into the argument that captive bred is all good and wild caught is all bad. BTW those mutant clowns have got to make a better feeder than a goldfish.

 

[Anonymous]

When we manipulate things just for caprice and we are not thinking in god reasons ( better crops to fight hunger for example) and we are thinking just to have something rare.... :roll: , I don't want to judge anybody but think twice... that's not right.

God reasons? So God supports the 'production' of Kobe beef and veal chops? The more rich people eat these things, the more cheaper meat is available for the hungry, right? Would 'God' support the production of 'Soylent Green'? Also, does 'God' support the factory farming of chickens since it produces cheap meat while torturing birds? Be careful of falling into the trap of thinking 'God' supports what you happen to agree with and is against what you don't agree with.

By the way I don't feel the same way when I see a deformed apple than a fish with deformed gills.

I understand that. But how do you feel when you see a well formed giant apple and a fish with lush, long fins? Both of them got there the same way as the deformed apple and the deformed fish.

We can manipulate species to help them to fight diseases, we should not manipulte animals just for a whim (from bad to worse if that is affecting the health or life expectancy of the species),

Can we manipulate species to help fight disease if that manipulation affects the heath of that species?
Fighting disease and wanting something interesting in your living room are both whims, and I don't think one is necessarily better than the other.

I think you are coming from the angle that somehow 'God' supports some manipulation of the natural world, but not others. This scares me for several reasons. Which of the thousands of 'Gods' are you talking about, how do you know what 'God' wants, and I don't believe in 'God'.

I wish I could express my thoughts in a better way unfortunately English is not my mother tongue. I hope you get the idea.

I think you are doing a great job. If I have misunderstood anything let me know.

RR :mrgreen:

 

[Anonymous]

Vitz I would have to argue that aquaculture is creating the demand by offering these mutants for sale. Same thing with hybrid gobies. People aren't coming into to my store and saying: "Well I sort of think those salt fish are attractive, but I guess I'll wait on a tank until they can inbreed some albino true perks. Or gosh that yellow tang is pretty, but would it be possible to get one in pink." IMO it is marine aquaculture for all the wrong reasons.

I hope you are lumping store owners in the mix when you say 'marine aquaculture'.
Maybe the whole thing is consumer driven. I mean, the only reason people by anything at your store is that they want something everyone else doesn't have. The only reason there is aquaculture for the pet trade at all is because people want to buy stuff.
People will always want the 'rare' thing. That is why some things are more expensive than others. I think we are just discussing another version of that drive.

We have our loveable tiny little dogs that piss on the floor and cats with no hair.

Hey! I have both of those! http://www.atomicglass.com/goofystuff/kitty.html

oranje you really did open a can of worms. It really throws a monkey wrench into the argument that captive bred is all good and wild caught is all bad. BTW those mutant clowns have got to make a better feeder than a goldfish.

Great points! Sports are a necessary result of any breeding program. The question is what to do with them? In the pet trade, I say sell 'em. Sell 'em for as much money as possible. It puts more money back into aquaculture.

RR :mrgreen:

 

[SPC]

Posted by oranje:

Will I die in a year from a heart defect? Hopefully not, but would you fault my parents for raising me despite this possibility?

-Well that depends. Is your heart defect hereditary? If you live long enough will you in turn breed and pass this trait on to future generations?
Steve

 

[esmithiii]

oranje you really did open a can of worms. It really throws a monkey wrench into the argument that captive bred is all good and wild caught is all bad. BTW those mutant clowns have got to make a better feeder than a goldfish

Those clownfish are not mutants, and they were not intentionally bred that way. Like I stated in my post, those colorations are normally culled out, and the more typical coloration is the goal of the captive breeder.

Once again I do not think it "throws a monkey wrench into the argument that captive bred is all good and wild caught is all bad" at all. Even though breeders selectively breed, IMO that is a good thing. Those who disagree should forsake beef, chicken and most vegetables in the market today.

Can we manipulate species to help fight disease if that manipulation affects the heath of that species?

Selective breeding can only help the health of the species as a whole (not necessarily each specimen) because if a species is captive bred, fewer fish will be removed from the natural environment. If the selective breeding creates a heartier population, then the species benefits. If it produces a weaker specimens, natual ones will still reproduce. I am somewhat bewildered by how any of you could consider this a bad practice. You are looking for faults in a practice that reduces the strain on our natural reefs and will probably save the hobby from being legislated out of existence. I still cannot see the downside!

 

[dizzy]

[

quote="esmithiiiThose clownfish are not mutants, and they were not intentionally bred that way. Like I stated in my post, those colorations are normally culled out, and the more typical coloration is the goal of the captive breeder.

Ernie I want to make one thing perfectly clear. I am not against marine aquaculture. I am pretty good friends with some of the boys in the business. There are at least 6 clownfish operations that I know of here in the US. (and PR) And more will surely come. Three are pretty good size. How do you know where the fish in the picture came from and if it was intentionally bred? If these are showing up a lot it begins to get suspicious. So far we are lucky that US breeders are not trying to build "Frankenstein" fish. I have it on very good authority that this is not the case in the Far East.

Do you know how freshwater breeders lock in certain characterists they like? They bred that albino baby directly back to the appropriate parent, and then they cross the babies they like with each other. I'm not saying it is all bad. What I am saying is that you are possibly opening a Pandora's Box of acceptance when you start to play this game. IMO we are much better off to send a message to the breeders that we don't want these types of fish. I like the marine fish the way they look now. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[esmithiii]

How do you know where the fish in the picture came from and if it was intentionally bred? If these are showing up a lot it begins to get suspicious.

I personally saw quite a few of fish with similar markings (still a relatively low percentage ot the total) in the hatchery I visited, and was told in no uncertain terms that they coloration was undesireable and that poorly marked fish were usually culled. I personally saw every brood pair in the place, and none showed mishapen stripes. Of course, I have only seen one breeder. I think the supposition that someone is intentionally breeding fish to look this was is at least as shaky as the supposition that I made that I doubt the coloration on the fish shown was intentional.

As for intentionally breeding fish for unusual coloration/traits, I still do not see the downside. Dizzy, can you articulate to me why it is bad? I see nothing wrong with the practice. I love Beef and Chicken, and love the nice varieties of tomatoes and other vegtables that my wife grew, all of which exist due to selective breeding/propagation practices. As for inbreeding to achieve certain traits, this is something that is looked down upon by humans, but often occurs in nature. If that is your only objection to selective breeding then perhapse you should be against natural selection as well and have a chat w/ God about it.


Ernie

 

[esmithiii]

Let me add one point- I don't like marine fish like they are- I want them heartier!

Ernie

 

[SPC]

Posted by Ernie:

Let me add one point- I don't like marine fish like they are- I want them heartier!

-Then maybe you should have a chat with God about that. :lol:
Steve

 

[Minh Nguyen]

Posted by Ernie:

Let me add one point- I don't like marine fish like they are- I want them heartier!

-Then maybe you should have a chat with God about that. :lol:
Steve

Wild caught fish often have parasites in them. Tank raise fish, clown especially, are much healthier.

 

[SPC]

I know Minh, please note the :lol: after my post, I was just razzing Ernie.
Steve

 

[esmithiii]

-Then maybe you should have a chat with God about that.

Ouch!! Guess I deserved that one, though... We as humans have the ability to make my desire a reality w/ out God's intervention.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a concise argument as to why selective breeding is anything but good.

Ernie

 

[dizzy]

As for intentionally breeding fish for unusual coloration/traits, I still do not see the downside. Dizzy, can you articulate to me why it is bad?

It's not that it's bad Ernie. It's just that it's not good. And it certainly ain't necessary.

 

[dizzy]

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a concise argument as to why selective breeding is anything but good.

Ernie when you left fish out you gave me an opening. How about Hilter and the blonde haired blue-eyed Super Race.

 

[esmithiii]

It's not that it's bad Ernie. It's just that it's not good. And it certainly ain't necessary.

In my argument I showed why it is a good thing. Basically I am saying that if it causes people to buy captive bred, even pay more for captive bred then fewer wild caught fish will be taken from the reef. I for one think nicely colored fish is a good thing, so I have to disagree. A trait that is often bred for is for heartiness. Only strong fish that survive to maturity are used as brood stock. I think this is a great thing. Are you saying that it is not a good thing?

As for Hitler, are you stating that you equate people with animals? So are you saying that eating animals is no better than cannibalism? There are some fundamental differences between Hitler's idea of the perfect race and the selective breeding of animals. First and foremost, Hitler called for the destruction of all animals that didn't meet his criteria. Selective breeding simply takes the best of the stock and breeds them. The less desireable ones are more often than not sold. When fish are culled, it is not to keep them out of the gene pool but it is due to the fact that no one will buy them.

Hitler's approach was to kill all the undesireables and let the desireables mate with whomever they like provided they were desireable. Selective breeding of animals is quite different; it puts two of the most desireable together and then lets them mate. A key difference between humans and most animals is that to members of the same species of opposite sex will most often mate. People (females more than males) are much more discriminating.

Again I am having trouble understanding your point. Maybe you could just come right out and tell me why you think it is wrong instead of using vague metaphors.

 

[SPC]

Posted by Ernie:

Hitler's approach was to kill all the undesireables and let the desireables mate with whomever they like provided they were desireable.

-Another thing that Hitler never imagined was Tiger Woods. :lol:
Steve

 

[dizzy]

Perhaps we need to bring Ted Williams into the conversation. 8O

 

[dizzy]

[Again I am having trouble understanding your point. Maybe you could just come right out and tell me why you think it is wrong instead of using vague metaphors.

Ernie I'm going to say it again. I don't think it's wrong I just don't think it's necessary. I think the oscellaris and perculas are already beautiful. Nature has this thing called "Survival of the fittest" It is nature's way of keeping the species healthy. You know the alpha male or the biggest, baddest walrus gets to mate with all the girls. It works pretty darn well. This captive breeding of the prettiest does not necessarily mean it will produce the healthiest offspring. I can't stop inbreeding and crossbreeding and I'm not even going to try. You buy whatever you like and I'll buy what I like.

 

[Luis]

Oops, I mean good reasons instead "god reasons" so I will not read what you wrote about this ... I know it was my fault.

Anyway, in short:Now we have natural blue tangs and natural orange clowns fish in the market but the consumer wants orange (or pink or black....) tangs and blue clowns ???? Is that all right? or it is only a whim to have what nobody have?

We have to many options to chose from.... but people always want something new, and i'm sure; in the future if we get blue clowns then
people will want white clowns and after that something else. I know, everybody want money; if you want to sell you have to sell what people want to buy. then we are manipulating species to get money and not for really good reasons... I know, somebody is going to answer : money is a good reason. ???? I don't think so

Anyway. it's just my point of view.