? on LS and DBS

[Drew McH]

I would like to introduce myself. I have been lurking for a couple of months and found this BB with a wealth of info and kind folks. I just bought the 2 recommended book Natural Reef Aquariums and The Conscientious Marine Aquarist. I have a 40g breeder size and would like to keep corals, clams, and a couple of clown fishes. I dont have too much experience with keeping SW but I dont plan on buying clams or corals for about 6 months. I have a couple of ?

1) I bought the SD tropical sand at HD and it says not recommended for aquaruims. Did I buy the right sand.

2) I should not rinse the SD sand and put it directly in the tank. Should I add water then sand or it does not matter? I was thinkin I can add the sand then add the water slowly to prevent a milky tank. Speed up the clearing process lol.

3) To start up my tank I have a wet/dry that I will use as a sump no balls or mech filter. Is it better to get a external pump or a pump that will reside in the sump?

4) I have a garage that is turned into a room and I will put the tank in there but it does not have AC the average temps in the middle of the summer is around 80-90. Would I need a chiller or would a fan suffice?

5) If I dont add live sand but I add a detrivore kit will I be wasting my time or will the SD sand turn to live sand.

Sorry for all the ? I appreciate anybody taking time to help me out

 

[Len]

Welcome to our community!

1) I bought the SD tropical sand at HD and it says not recommended for aquaruims. Did I buy the right sand.

Yes, you did. The disclaimer is for legal purposes.

2) I should not rinse the SD sand and put it directly in the tank. Should I add water then sand or it does not matter? I was thinkin I can add the sand then add the water slowly to prevent a milky tank. Speed up the clearing process lol.

I would add the sand first. A suggestion: Cover the sand with a sheet of plastic before you poor water over it. The plastic sheet will help deflect the water and prevent sand from being stirred up.

3) To start up my tank I have a wet/dry that I will use as a sump no balls or mech filter. Is it better to get a external pump or a pump that will reside in the sump?

Internal pumps are generally quieter and cheaper, but they're also not quite as reliable, have a limited output capcity, and transfer a significant amount of heat into the water. External water pumps (aka inline pumps) are the preferred choice when feasible. I use Iwaki pumps myself because they're relatively quiet, powerful, and extremely reliable. I'm sure other opinions abound on this board, so ask around.

4) I have a garage that is turned into a room and I will put the tank in there but it does not have AC the average temps in the middle of the summer is around 80-90. Would I need a chiller or would a fan suffice?

Usually, several fans will be enough to cool any tank. The more evaporation that occurs, the evaporative cooling that occurs. Pretty simple. I wouldn't worry about a chiller at this point. Buy it only if you find the tank still gets too warm after you've maxed out on fans.

5) If I dont add live sand but I add a detrivore kit will I be wasting my time or will the SD sand turn to live sand.

A good detrivore kit will be perfectly adequete to seed your SD. The kit, along with live rock, will innoculate your sand in time, making SD as good as live sand. Live sand is still a good idea if you can get a hold of it, as it will increase your biodiversity. You don't need all live sand; a few pounds of it will also work like a detrivore kit, seeding your sand with new life.

Sorry for all the ? I appreciate anybody taking time to help me out

That's what we're here for

 

[DrDave88]

ok here goes - i have been asking questions galore, and i finally think i know enough to answer these questions!

1. No idea. I know that SD makes at least two kinds of sand, one plain sand and the other with shells and stuff. i figure you can't go wrong with what you have cause all sand is ok for salt tanks. I am sure someone will disagree, but i have read that everywhere.

2. Sand, then water. don't rinse the sand either, you want it all in the tank.

3. jealous on you haveing the w/d already, i want one! doesn't matter where you have the pump, in or out of the sump. as long as the setup is how you like it and is easy for you to work with, no biggie. i know that if it is in the sump, it can get real slimy and what not, i prefer mine out of the sump.

4. about the heat - you'll want a fan if you beef up your light system anyways... the garage temp may be rather high, but the fan with help cool it off. keep it on 24/7, but it also depends on your garage. put a bowl of water in the garage and measure the temp in a few hours. do that a couple times in one day, and see what you can get. if you wanna get silly, put a fan on the water the next day and measure at the same time as the day before. that is not rocket science.

5. Put the LR in, and in time it will fill with creatures. you can add live sand, but i dont have to. i may be wrong again here, but that is what i will do when i get my setup running again. if you go anywhere to get the LR, you can get the slude from the bottom of the LR pool at the LFS, this is the real good stuff...

 

[danmhippo]

First off, Welcome to Reefs.org

1) I bought the SD tropical sand at HD and it says not recommended for aquaruims. Did I buy the right sand.

Yes, that's the right sand. They can sell the sand much more expensibe if they repackage it and slap on the label "for reef tank". Basically, these are the same thing as the one's sold in LFS, just different packaging targeted toward different market segment.

2) I should not rinse the SD sand and put it directly in the tank. Should I add water then sand or it does not matter? I was thinkin I can add the sand then add the water slowly to prevent a milky tank. Speed up the clearing process lol.

You are right. Adding sand first then add water would prevent the cloudiness somewhat. But remember, SD contains a lot of very fine particles and no matter what you do to prevent it, the water will be cloudy for a couple of days (up to 2 weeks). Not until all sand particles are covered with organics and bacteria, they will not settle down.

3) To start up my tank I have a wet/dry that I will use as a sump no balls or mech filter. Is it better to get a external pump or a pump that will reside in the sump?

I personally prefer external pump that you will need to drill a hole on the wall of the sump to make plumbing connection. 2 reasons. One, Less heat from the pump transferred to tank water. Two, Less clutter in the sump, leaving more spaces for other gadgets and giving you more excuses to spend more money.

4) I have a garage that is turned into a room and I will put the tank in there but it does not have AC the average temps in the middle of the summer is around 80-90. Would I need a chiller or would a fan suffice?

Yes, you will need a chiller. Not only does the air temperature factor into tank water equation, but also the heat dissipated from pumps and lights add quite a lot of heat too. If the ambient room temp hovers in mid to high 80's, a chiller must be installed to protect your investments.

5) If I dont add live sand but I add a detrivore kit will I be wasting my time or will the SD sand turn to live sand.

Don't worry about live sand if you can wait for the SD to turn live. Most Live rock has enough bacteria and hitchhiked critters to turn your SD into live sand. You can also get detrivore package from most MO to boost your SD into Live Sand faster and with diversity.

Talking about this packaged LS, I have a small suggestion. Back when I setup my 150G, I used dead sand (not SD), but on top, I spread a 1/2" layer of wet sand (packaged Live sand). The wet layer prevented the fine particles in the dry sand floating up and the water is clear from day one. Thought I'd share this with you. But if you have the patience to look at your milky tank for a week, then you can skip adding 1/2" wet live sand part.

It is also recommended to fill the tank with SD up to about 2" mark, Add eggcrate on top of the 2" sand, and complete filling rest of the sands. The eggcrate will prevent large animals from digging too deep into the sand while allowing small worms and brittle stars do their work.

Good luck

 

[Drew McH]

Thanks for the quick reply. This is what the BB is all about.

 

[Palmetto]

You have been given some very good advice here. Not much to add, except that I will second Danmhippo's advice on the packaged Live Sand or other Live Sand.

In setting up my SPS farm tank, I put a good bit (several inches) of the CaribSea sand in the bottom, then added the water. Even though I poured on plastic, it was still VERY foggy even a week later. Then I put in about 10lbs. of Live Fiji sand that covered the bottom of the tank about 1/4" to 1/2". All of a sudden, it cleared right up.

Had I put the wet "Live" sand on top of the other to begin with, the dry powdered stuff would not have been everywhere for that long. Very good advice, IMHO.

You may not need the chiller, but it depends largely on what lighting you have, which I don't think you mentioned.

What type of lighting will you be using? Metal Halide in a room like you described will be like a space-heater. VHO may be OK without a chiller if it is fan-cooled properly. Of course, I live in SC and it has been over 100 degrees for most of the last several weeks.

One other thing about the chiller- it will heat the room up bigtime. Cool the tank, heat the room.

 

[danmhippo]

Yes, indeed, I forgot about the heat from chiller. If you decided to install chiller, plan on placing the chiller outside of garage, and run plumbing from outside. This way, you don't heat up the garage. Hotter the fish tank room, less efficiency from the chiller.

 

[Drew McH]

Awesome ideas folks. Lights, I havent gotten that far yet. I plan on using flourescent lights for now just so I dont kill the LR. I don't plan on adding anything but LR and pair of clowns. If I can keep the clowns alive for about 6 months LOL then I will start adding Coral and clams after I do some research of course. I talked my wife into letting me set up the tank in the house instead. All I need now is a RO/DI and a skimmer. Is it safe to add the DSB and water but no salt, ph or skimmer for about a month? All I can afford for now is the RO/DI unit. The next month I will add the skimmer and LR. Then the following month add the clowns. How does this schedule sound?. Thanks again for taking the time. I am so excited.

 

[danmhippo]

No salt for a month? No No No. Nitrifying bacteria for freshwater is different from the salt. Besides, adding salt later is a big hassle.

You can go sand + LR + salt water. A couple weeks later, heater and skimmer. I would recommend you cycle LR with the sand. If you put sand and LR separately, sand cycle will take a couple of weeks, and when you put LR later, the cycle will start over and last for a couple more weeks. Besides, you will need some bacteria and micro fauna in the LR to help cycle your sand anyway. Just a suggestion.

 

[Palmetto]

I totally agree with Danm again.

Sand with fresh water very bad.

Put in sand and salted RO/DI water. Then put in Live Rock. Until you add the Live Rock, you really aren't cycling anything at all. Just wetting sand and wasting time. Even if you can't get all your rock at once- your rock is where your cycling is actually coming from. Get as much as you can in there right away.

No rush on the skimmer. In fact, I think you will do your cycle a favor by waiting a couple of months to start skimming.

If at all possible, add dead sand, then some live on top. Then add salted RO/DI water. Then I would personally recommend adding at least a lb. per gallon of Live Rock. You can add more and AquaScape later, but this will get your cycle going very well. I actually like to start with some "fresher" Live rock that is not so "cured". This will give you the biological spike that will plane off into a healthy cycle. Harbor Aquatics and Gulf View get very good reviews on their rock. I am not allowed to reccomend my company, so I won't.

You will get your best deal on rock ordering from a good company and having it shipped directly to your airport. Shipping like that is not as expensive as you might think. Same with the sand. If you order small quantities at a time from LFS or something you will pay $7-12 per pound, where you can get better quality sent to you at $4-5 or even less.

Not starting the cycle by getting a good load of quality Live Rock on your DSB is the most common startup mistake, IMHO.

I also agree with Len's Detrivore kit reccomendation.

Who sells the best Detrivore kits? That is probably something I should add to our selection also. It is a very key component of a successful biological foundation. Good Live Rock will load your sand also.

I'm rambling, but I have learned much from the shortcuts I took that I would never skimp on again.



One more thing: do NOT dump a huge load of hermit crabs in there. Nothing will eat up your detrivores quicker. They eat all the wonderful little wormies and pods and stuff that you REALLY want to get going. Perhaps a few later on, perhaps not. I am joining the snail bandwagon for the most part. I have banished almost all my hermits. Get a variety of carefully chosen snails- but not too many at first or you will starve them.

 

[beast]

What does SD stand for?

 

[Drew McH]

Thanks Again for all the helpful advice. I have made the right choice in coming to this BB. I will add the saltwater, DSB, LR and in a few months a skimmer. I am following everybody advice and not skimp out on the less expesive equipment. I will keep lurking and occasion ask ? because I dont know enough to contribute to this BB yet. Now I have to go back to reading my books. Thanks Again it is because of you people that make this hobby enjoyable.

 

[reefsRcool]

What does SD stand for?

SD=southdown. it is the brand name of the playsand sold at home depot. home depot sell a few different types of playsand quickcrete being the other i commonly see around here. it may not have been manufacture or intended for fishtanks but it truely is perfect for our application.

 

[Ritteri&Bubbles]

home depot sell a few different types of playsand quickcrete being the other i commonly see around here. it may not have been manufacture or intended for fishtanks but it truely is perfect for our application.

Uhhh, quikcrete is not the same as Southdown Tropical playsand and isnt recommended at all.

 

[DrDave88]

on the topic of adding the sand and LR, damnhippo has mentined that you need not skim at first, if money has it that way. is this correct? i thought that skimming at the beginning would be a very important part of the start up cycle, that way skimming is not overloaded when you start it up... please correct me, this i need to know!
-dr

 

[danmhippo]

Skimmer removes organics from water. Organics is the origin of the nitrogen cycle. Removing the organics actually, I believe, removes the ingredients from water that would feed the bacteria. The reason we put raw shrimps or LR die offs to kick start the cycling IS to provide organics for the bacteria to convert them into nitrite, and nitrate. Using a skimmer very beginning in the process removes them and lengthened the cycle period.

That being said, skimmer is still a very important piece of equipment for a new tank. Before placing any fish or corals into the tank, you should install a skimmer, let it run for a week or 2, retest water to make sure the tank is running efficient in processing organic wastes. The reason for the week or 2 is that most skimmers requires a week or 2 to "break-in". You want to have all equipments running well before you invest your hard earned $$ on live stocks.

 

[fishfarmer]

JMO, but I would start running your skimmer from the start especially if you're buying uncured rock. You should have enough organics and ammonia from fresh rock the start your cycle and still be able to run your skimmer. This would be the time to break in your skimmer anyway and adjust it to run wetter or dryer. I prefer to try to save as much life on my rock as possible so I skim during the cycle and do a few light water changes, siphoning the dead goo off the rocks. Once the rock is cured, I continue to monitor the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate for several weeks until they reach zero and stay there. I may also add a pinch or two of food during this time for the filter feeders on the rock. This is also a good time to start figuring out you calcium dosing requirements. You may not have many critters at this point that will require calcium additions, but this is a good time to get into the routine of calcium dosing BEFORE adding corals.

 

[DrDave88]

Well, sounds like there is a differance of opinion here one to run skimmer after the rock has mostly cured, and then other to put the skimmer on from the get go. I think i will be going with the skimmer from the beginning. this will allow me to really get a good idea about what my equiptment can handle and how it reacts to differant situations. besides, who cares if i have to wait, that is the name of the game right?

next question -
do i wait a few days for the sand to settle first? that is what i presumed what be the better way, as water borne sand will cover the LR otherwise?

-dr

 

[SPC]

Posted by DrDave:

do i wait a few days for the sand to settle first? that is what i presumed what be the better way, as water borne sand will cover the LR otherwise?

If you are talking about the L/R then you should add it right after the sand. If you wait a couple days to add it then you will just start the cloudy mess again.
Steve

 

[fishfarmer]

If you're really concerned about the sand covering the LR, buy yourself a turkey baster and blast the rocks every couple of days. I would be pulling and inspecting my rock every couple of days anyway for rotten things and blasting/scraping those thing off, but that is just what I like to do with my rock. I consider live rock as valuable as the corals that will be placed on them. Heck you'll be paying a few bills for ROCKS, might as well try to save as much life as possible.