Urgent Message from Kent Marine

[ianstein]

URGENT! Please Respond by Dec. 27, 2002


Dear Fellow Reef Hobbyist:

The FAA has written a new rule to require air carriers to, among other things, keep records of every animal that dies or is injured on a flight. The original intent of this rule was good, but groups, whose intention it is to stop pet ownership have influenced the rule. If this rule is enforced it may cause air carriers, who are under extreme pressures already due to terrorism, to reject carrying fish and other low profit animals, maybe even all animals. The result of this may be a total collapse of the pet industry as we know it. Whatever your opinion, as a citizen, you have the right, and I encourage you to voice your opinion to the FAA prior to the deadline of Dec. 27.

It is easy via the internet to do so. The following link will allow you and others to make comments on the rule. I have commented and requested that they limit this rule to companion animals (i.e. dogs and cats).

The link is http://dms.dot.gov

Then click open dockets

It is the third FAA item, click http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResults ... ype=docket

Click comments/submissions then you can fill out a comment (you do not need to register, just click continue)

Our opinion: Many members of the American Kennel Club have already responded and I wholeheartedly agree with their stance. Many other respondents, mostly members of PETA and other animal rights groups, however well intentioned, have responded and asked that all animals be inspected. This is not even possible, much less practical. In the case of tropical fish and other exotic animals, the very act of inspections will subject these animals to extreme temperatures, loss of oxygen, rough handling, and excess time in transit causing their demise. How sad, that a rule that is designed to ensure safety will actually cause their death!

Please take time out of your busy Christmas schedule to respond.

Thanks,

Jack Kent

President

 

[LeoR]

This rule applies only to passenger jets and requires just one monthly report of incidents.

This may increase the cost of shipping on regular flights.
On the other side, it might help improve travel conditions (and survival rate) for fish and corals.

I see no reason to oppose this rule, much less to panic that the industry will go down in flames.

LeoR

 

[teevee]

if it means that animal stocks in coral reefs will no longer be compromised, i'm all for it. i'd rather pay $100 for a captive-bred or specially-handled ocellaris clown than know i'm contributing to the demise of the species in the wild as a whole.

hopefully the carrier employees will be educated in proper handling procedures. or we could just slap biohazard stickers on the boxes

 

[Kalkbreath]

Nice try... if you think having bags of fish laying around on the cold bay floors in Cleveland OH in Dec., as some baggage people spend hours attempting to guess how many of the twohundred neon tetras in this bag are still OK {or better yet Brine shrimp} Then you must love to see many more fish and other animals die waiting to be inspected ....OH , and most trade fish travel on passenger flights ........even from the Fiji islands.......Because those flights are the quickest {most expensive}and less stressful to the animals, TOO bad some want to harm the animals by increasing the time {by hours }all in an effort to "HELP" Like the people that rescue lobsters and release them into nearby lakes {freshwater} !
_________________
Ferrari 575M Maranello
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The Whiteboard

 

[LeoR]

Kalkbreath:

The rule does not say that fish must wait in the cold to be counted.
The airlines and industry may arrange that wholesalers simply report to airlines (which would forward it to the FAA) how many fish died.
This does not require any extra work; you count how many fish are DOA anyway.

One rule I'd really love to see (not flight related) is:
"Mandatory label of origin".

This would allow us to provide home-like environment for fish and corals.
Right now, we are packing creatures from all over of the world into one box, forcing all of them to live in same temp, salinity, etc., because we have no idea who came from where.

Sellers, who know very well the origin of every creature they sell, for some reason prefer to hide this info which can be important for survival.
Of course, they are more than happy to let us know when something is from the Red Sea, because that translates into a much higher price.

LeoR

 

[dizzy]

Sellers, who know very well the origin of every creature they sell, for some reason prefer to hide this info which can be important for survival.
Of course, they are more than happy to let us know when something is from the Red Sea, because that translates into a much higher price.

LeoR

LeoR,

Actually California has passed (I think it passed anyway) A new law that requires care sheets to be given out with every animals that is sold. It is possible it will be interpreted that this applies to wholesalers as well as retailers. Anyway once the law is in place, a store can be fined if they sell a swordtail to a customer without providing a care sheet. It will add some cost to the animals and require the sacrifice of more trees. The stores will need to have some way of proving they gave out the sheets or they will be liable for fines every time a fish dies. I guess they will need to get a signature and an address for each customer and keep it on file. Sure is likely to slow down things at the cash register.

MG

 

[LeoR]

dizzy:

I find it interesting that someone opposed to providing info for proper care of animals seems to be concerned about how many trees will die for it.

Many plants come with a dead-tree tag telling us the species, where to keep, how often to water, etc.

Are you saying we should go back to the middle ages and have customers look up all the info in chicken entrails to save the trees?

LeoR

 

[dizzy]

Leo,

I happen to think people should research the animals they want before they buy them. If they are not willing to meet the basic requirements then they should not purchase. If you can pass a law that says the people actually have to read the paper then I'm all for it.

Mitch

 

[LeoR]

dizzy:

Evading the actual issue raised, again.

Please help us educate ourselves.
Which book or web site contains the info we need: Where were the creatures you sell collected?

LeoR

 

[dizzy]

Leo,

If you are looking for geographic origins of fish Wetwebmedia.com is a great place to start researching, and you can link around endlessly from there. Good books are Baensch Marine Atlas, Dr. Burgess's Marine Atlas, and Reef Fishes by Michael. We let people look at the books here in the store and we recommend books like Fenner's "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" if they are new to the hobby. The care for various angels or tangs is often similar even though they may come from different oceans. These fish are often mixed at the wholesale and retail levels with little harm to the fish. The main exception to this rule would be that fish from temperate or coldwater should not be mixed with tropicals.

I still maintain it is better to educate yourself before you buy and not after.

MG

 

[LeoR]

dizzy:

Are you sure you understood my question?

Give me a link or a book page which says where, say, that Acropora in the left corner of tank #2 in your store was collected.

LeoR

 

[dizzy]

Leo,

I don't believe I did understand the question. If it was an acropora in my tank I could tell you that it most likely came from Fiji. If it was a large polyp stony it probably came from Indo. There really aren't many countries that allow corals to be collected. Fiji may not be that far from shutting down so it will really get easy to guess origin. I believe some corals come from Tonga as well, but I don't think it is all that many. I wasn't aware people tried to keep this information secret. The fish can be more difficult to track since the same species may come from different countries.

I find that it is in my best interest to try and help our customers to be successful. If your not getting good information I would suggest trying another store.

Mitch

 

[LeoR]

dizzy:

I give up.
You or your wholesaler knows *exactly* where each fish and coral came from.
Otherwise you wouldn't know how to get credit for DOAs and whether to use that supplier in the future.

This info is never given to customers voluntarily; when pressed most stores will say "not sure", "don't know", or "probably Indo".

The term "Indo-Pacific" covers a huge area of several time zones, with wide range of temps and salinites.

Even when the location is given, we need info on the exact site and collection depth, which can make a big diff (e.g: it can tell us whether some coral is photo-synthetic or not, what kind of water flow it likes, what's the preferred environment and food for some fish, and so on).

LeoR

 

[aquarist=broke]

Just think of all the unenlightened people who really don't give a hoot about the where, when, or what about their purchase in the store and are not even going to participate in this discussion. They just seem to buy what is pretty, cool, or common.

My first step is to look up the information about a fish that I am considering. Most of the information i've come across averages the same. If it was really necessary to give exact information, then we would really be limited to what we could have in a tank.

It would be hard to give my animals realistic currents, chemical parameters, or lighting to match the environment called for by these "necessary" information tags.

it can tell us whether some coral is photo-synthetic or not, what kind of water flow it likes, what's the preferred environment and food for some fish, and so on

I think some of the sources Dizzy listed could answer the above questions. Anybody could use that info to provide their animals the best chance at survival.

 

[JeremyR]

I think you need to quit raggin on Dizzy.. it all sounds so easy from the outside, but you have no concept of what it's really like. Such as the airlines leaving the fish out in the cold thing.. did you think kalk was joking? This is standard procedure for them. One would almost think they enjoy it.

 

[LeoR]

JeremyR:

I am just asking for a simple answer to a simple question, which is easy to answer.
And it does matter.

Take humans for example. We are all one species and can tolerate a wide range of temperatures, etc. However, tolerate is one thing and being comfortable is quite another.

For example, my neighbors who are from Norway often swim in an unheated pool in the middle of the winter. If I did the same I'd get instantly sick. Yet we belong to the same species.

So, there are many things beyond the species definition, like individual conditioning and tolerance. And no book can tell you what are best conditions for any particular specimen.

If there is any *good* reason for withholding the information we need and you have I'd like to hear it.

LeoR

 

[SPC]

I must agree with Leo on this point, this is one of the main reasons that I keep a biotope tank that is specific to the Keys. When I order animals from this area, I can be sure of what conditions they came from by talking directly to the diver 8) .
Steve

 

[JeremyR]

Sellers, who know very well the origin of every creature they sell, for some reason prefer to hide this info which can be important for survival.
Of course, they are more than happy to let us know when something is from the Red Sea, because that translates into a much higher price.

To be honest, most stores don't know the origin of what they sell because most wholesalers don't tell them. You actually have to go to ALOT of effort to keep track of where your stuff comes from and to find a wholesaler to tell you the truth on the subject. The reason they don't tell you is because of the whole cyanide issue. The reason non indo/phil fish cost more (IE Red Sea in your example) can be for a variety of reason, but it is not a label. If fish from a certain region are only net caught, the price will be higher. If there is a poor variety of flights with expensive air freight, the price will be higher. If you call up X wholesaler in LA, Salesman John Doe won't even know where the fish are from, because they just answer the phone and write down an order. The whole system is a mess, and what is going to fix it is a whole 'nother debate that has been raging for many years. This airline thing isn't the answer tho.

 

[LeoR]

JeremyR:

Thanks for the straight answer.

I guess this mess will take a lot of that hated red tape to fix

LeoR

 

[dizzy]

JeremyR:

I am just asking for a simple answer to a simple question, which is easy to answer.
And it does matter.
If there is any *good* reason for withholding the information we need and you have I'd like to hear it.
LeoR

Leo,

I'm not wanting to get you riled up again but I will try to give you a little insight into the problem. The chain of custody is collector-exporter-wholesaler-retailer-hobbyist. If the wholesaler is buying from an exporter he could not easily get the information you are seeking. That information would have to come from the collector and the exporter is unlikely to even know which collector actually brought in which particular animal. I think the animals get mixed according to similarites due to a lack of space at the holding facilities. Something like all blue hippo tangs go together and so on. Same with the corals, as all Trachyphyllia would go in the same tank. It is usually the same at the wholesalers. Same species equals same tank, if agression allows. I don't believe this mixing is an intentional attempt to confuse the origins. I think it happens because of the tremendous amount of holding space it would require to keep each animal in its own cubicle. It might also be more stressful to put the fish into tanks that were real small just to keep them separated, than to house them together in larger tanks.

Elwyn Segrest shed some light on the problem a while back on the AMDA forum. Elwyn owns his own collecting stations in several countries. I believe he said it cost nearly $1,000,000 per station. He is also part owner in one of the largest export companies in the Philippines. He says it is virtually impossible to keep everything sorted by an individual tracking number. The problem begins out on the collecting sites. Each boat has several divers that share a common live well. Space limitations necesitate that the mixing occurs at the beginning of the coc. The bottom line is that these are Third World countries with very limited resources. When the fish and corals get back to the exporter holding facility they are mixed even further. I believe in order for them to have a large variety that the trade wants, it is also necessary for them to buy from other collectors. I believe this is where the cyanide fish get mixed in. Fish and corals from all over PI work their way to Manila. Similar situation in Indo as they wind up in Jakarta.

The mixing of fish from different countries occurs at the wholesale level. Blame limited space, central filter systems and the ability of the animals to adapt for this. Besides most retailers don't have different systems for fish from different regions even if the wholesalers kept them seperate. And even if the retailers kept them separated the hobbyists would mix them. A hobbyist is well advised to either buy aquacultured corals and fish when available, or learn how to tell if something is stressed or damaged. IMO the collection of wild caught animals will be banned before the information you are seeking is made available. I should also mention that this is a very cut-throat industry that is being dominated more and more by the discount stores (mostly online) who make their money by doing volume, not by offering quality. It is a mess and there are no simple solutions. Bringing about the changes some are seeking will probably come at the cost of free enterprise. That is a very high price to pay for reform.

MG