Element Toxicity

[FMarini]

I've read his article and have to say that IMO his theory is not an all-or-none phenomemon. I think most of you guys are purporting that if you have elevated buildup of toxic elements, you will get OTS. Therefore if as few people have old established tanks w/ no OTS then Dr Rons suppositions are incorrect. This is not how biological systems work. No two tanks and methodologies are the same.

The great correlate to this is smoking. Not everyone who smokes gets cancer, and saddly the causative link between smoking and cancer is more greatly researched and better understood,yet IMO is weak...why doesn't everyone who smoke get cancer. The science suggests they should.

I agree that more testing needs to be done, but i don't think you should throw out his theory in toto becuz a few hobbists have 7yr old tanks which in their opinion hasn't experinced a classic case of OTS.

Let me ask, any hobbist w/ a 7yr old tank, ever loose any fish or inverts during any time past 4yrs of tank establishment?

Let me propose something semi-far fetched here. Lets assume that dr Rons theory hold weight...therefore the animals and fish which thrive and survive in our setups are animals which are being actively selected for, for their ability to tolerate the level of pollution we require them to live in. Maybe the reason why new fish and tank inhabitants don't survive in our tanks has to do w/ genetic inability to tolerate high levels of toxic elements and/or water pollutants.

I'm not sure what to make of the article or Dr Rons suppositions, however my take home message is its food for thought, and that there may possibly be some scienfitic support to OT-like syndromes.
my opinion
frank

 

[Anonymous]

Steve-

Were you at the Borneman meeting yesterday? I almost brought this up during the RTN "shut down" segment but it was 10:30 and I had to go. I would have been interested to hear his take on it.


I can hear the Salt manufacturer's licking their chops over this one. Imagine being the first one to have ":guaranteed not to cause OTS!!" on the package. I bet it's Marc Weiss.

:lol: :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

It just seems to me that an awful lot can happen in four years to be able to pin down an undefinable event to something so specific. Some one would have to put a tank together with nothing but live rock and do water changes for four years and then monitor the levels of this stuff until it becomes toxic and then add corals to really pin anything down. So much stuff gets added to an aquarium over fours years to really be able to eliminate anything. (food: frozen, live, flake, buffers, additives, who knows what off of people hands, small amounts of water from countless other systems, live sand from who knows where, etc......)

 

[flameangel1]

I expect to be flamed for this, but,
in reading this whole thread, that "study" sounds just like the studies that say we have to watch every single thing we eat or we will get cancer and lose 2.1 years off our lives !!!

My customers and I, have tanks that are well over 10 years old,
I am still propagating corals off of my origonals, have fish over 14 yrs old and do not see signs of old tank syndrome.
I do advocate weekly water changes and poly-bio's, do not add all those "additives" , do not have refugiums or DSB's.
So according to the "studies", our tanks should have long since died, right ??
They haven't !!!

Also-
Check the alk and calcium in each new bag/bucket of the same brand saltmix/same water-it will never be the same.

I sincerely hope that any newbies reading this thread are not scared off by that study. Saltwater is not that hard to do, honest !!

 

[Anonymous]

Posted by Ben:

Let us try the following:
1. Contact the manufacturers and get their data on mix ion concentrations.

-Sounds good to me, do you think they would?

If threatened with diminished profits, heck yeah.

2. Form a group, of reefers here and on other boards, and commission the several manufacturers to formulate a mix that resembles NSW at SG of 1.025 and Temp of 81*F within some value like 0.1-.05% from reagent grade materials. The first one to confirm it independantly sells a 5g bucket to everyone in the group.

-Each member of the group would need the funds to get these tests done if I am following your point here.

Ok, then you're not following my point. Put the burden on the manufacturer. If we sent several of them a committment to buy 50,000 gallons of salt mix of certain specification, I've got a good feeling they'd be willing to atleast look into it.

3. Compile a list practices common to everyone that has an old tank that has not experienced OTS.
4. Standardize the definition of OTS.
5. Find someone that uses NSW that has had OTS.
6. Collect volunteers that currently have OTS, compile a list of common practices, divide them into treatment groups and begin adjusting environment variables and compile the results.

-Ok, when are you ready to start?
Steve

Heh, I was ready to start several hours ago. Took a life blow about 30 minutes after I posted that. Atm, I'm trying not to think about it. I believe it to be very doable, shouldn't take very many people to do the work, and it gets easier if it's done slowly but it's hard to maintain the impetus.

Ben

As a side note, to whoever it was that made the statement about 'those that lack the skill/expertise/etc' to do what Dr. Shimek as done . . . I love this hobby because it is intellectually stimulating. I turned down a research PhD program because it was not. Research requires a certain personality type; and I'm glad that they're out there so that I don't have to do it. But by gosh, when the four eyed lab nerds figure it out, these pimply faced pocket protected engineers will make it work.

 

[Anonymous]

i don't know dr. shimek and i've never even so far as gone to a lecture/seminar of his. i have read some of his books however and he doesn't strike me as an individual who would spring this on the hobbyists if there wasn't some validity.
yes, many tanks have been up for many years with and without skimmers and DSBs, etc. i think maybe these tanks could thrive even more if a toxic level of some proportion in the system now, were to be removed.

now, i am not gonna freak and run screaming for the polyfilters. i think many who have little understanding of a reef aquarium will.

if i were to be in shimeks shoes, i believe i would have concrete evidence that this is something to be rectified immediatly, before handing out advice to throw LR and DSB away. but again he must have his reasons.

anyway, my reason for posting was to ask how an individual would make his own saltwater mix? if this theory of his is proven to be of consequence we may doing this ourselves (and i don't know how).

 

[Anonymous]

one place you can find a recipe is in 'the marine aquarium in theory and practice'(emmens, i think)-though old and simple a recipe-it comes with directions that today, should be no problem to make a fairly large amount of-books before this one were publishing formulas-the first who decided to market this as a service,imho, were very smart in doing so(at the least,from a strictly business side)

i'm sure there are major aquariums (read public) that still make their own today(their budgets are fairly tight!)

 

[SPC]

Posted by Glenn:

Were you at the Borneman meeting yesterday? I almost brought this up during the RTN "shut down" segment but it was 10:30 and I had to go. I would have been interested to hear his take on it.

-No I couldn't make it Glenn, the old back was acting up .
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Too bad, it was a good presentation. I was trying to compare everyone to the one pic I've seen but I didn't think I saw you there. Pretty good turn out.