Hermit crabs your thoughts

[Anonymous]

Steve,
pardon my ignorance, but these detritivore kits that i have seen listed, online, magazines, etc., all have had a list of animals that will be included in the kit. all i have seen in these ads are animals that are readily available in live rock. not all rock is equal, but usually these detritivore kits have a few bristles, some mysis, some mini stars, little snails.... all of which have been reported to be in live rock.

now, i would believe imported LS may carry things that LR can't, but how is a maturing tank gonna create a DSB filled with the additional diverse animalia you speak of without it being the effect of colonization from the LR or LS? the kits look like regular rock critters to me. is there an added benefit not listed in the kits constituents?

maybe you are saying that LS (either real or aquacultured from the real thing) is a necessity in the groundworks for costructing a well balanced system?

 

[Anonymous]

vitz,

what does LS need that isn't found in LR?

 

[Anonymous]

burrowing snails that eat diatoms

sea cucumbers

various other species of bacteria

various species of burrowing worms

all i can think of at the moment :wink:

the types of animals are similiar-it's the species that are different :wink:

 

[SPC]

Posted by Vitz:

i started w/both, and then got a little bit wiser-learned about how to eliminate algae through proper management.

-But as Eric Borneman says, it would be more appropriate to call a coral reef an algae reef (80% - 90%) of life on the reef is algae. When I see algae in my tank I often remember this. If I saw none in there I would question whether I am feeding enough or if I have too many herbivores.
I am of the school that believes that the reason the reefs aren't over run with algae is due to the many herbivores, I try to take the same approach with my tank within reason of course.
Steve

Posted by Pod:
Steve,

pardon my ignorance

-Now Scott, you know I always do :lol: .

, but these detritivore kits that i have seen listed, online, magazines, etc., all have had a list of animals that will be included in the kit. all i have seen in these ads are animals that are readily available in live rock. not all rock is equal, but usually these detritivore kits have a few bristles, some mysis, some mini stars, little snails.... all of which have been reported to be in live rock.

-They might be in the LR, and then again they might not be.

now, i would believe imported LS may carry things that LR can't, but how is a maturing tank gonna create a DSB filled with the additional diverse animalia you speak of without it being the effect of colonization from the LR or LS?

-It can't, thats why I said I use sand from established tanks to start up a new DSB.

the kits look like regular rock critters to me. is there an added benefit not listed in the kits constituents?

-I would say most of the critters in the kit use both rock and sand environements.

maybe you are saying that LS (either real or aquacultured from the real thing) is a necessity in the groundworks for costructing a well balanced system?

-Correct, and that these animals cannot be obtained from LR if their environement is LS.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

SPC wrote:

But as Eric Borneman says, it would be more appropriate to call a coral reef an algae reef (80% - 90%) of life on the reef is algae. When I see algae in my tank I often remember this. If I saw none in there I would question whether I am feeding enough or if I have too many herbivores.
I am of the school that believes that the reason the reefs aren't over run with algae is due to the many herbivores, I try to take the same approach with my tank within reason of course.

nothing wrong with that,steve-and it doesn't necessarily contradict my point.

i believe the main reason people go crazy with all these turbos and hermits is to remove the algae that they consider to be a nuisance.

i think it just makes more sense to avoid the nuisance in the first place-through good management of water chemistry.

one caveat-my goal is also to create a similiar environment to that of nature that fits my own 'visual priorities'.micro algaes that grow on the glass and rock aren't one of them.if i can prevent them w/out adding an unnecessary group of animals that aren't in my 'list'-so much the better-for i can utilize that load factor for something else :wink:

i have no problem w/halimeda, acetabularia,etc. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Steve,
so i see that this has nothing to do with the detritivore kits, you believe in the need for LS.

i think if you can find good LS it is a wonderful addition but hardly necessary for a successful reef tank.
i have no disagreement with the support of LS additions, but hermits and snails are not the same conversation. i have the feeling you see the detritivore kits as i do, they can be found in LR. sure every peice of rock doesn't contain all possible animals for each available kit. but a good mix of quality rock will provide the detritivore kit and then some.

your point that nature utilizes snails and hermits doesn't hold any weight with me, there are a great number of things in the ocean that i don't want in my aquarium, hermits being the least offensive.

have you ever run a reef tank without them? there will be greater diversity from the decreased hermit predation, very noticable actually.

 

[Mogo]

I am a hermit crab fan. I thought I lost them a while ago but discovered they only work the night shift. To this point they have stayed clear of my corals (I watch the little goobers). they are like little lawn mowers that help the tangs in keeping algae in order.

 

[SPC]

Posted by Pod:

Steve,
so i see that this has nothing to do with the detritivore kits, you believe in the need for LS.

-Pod, I believe in the need for both.

i think if you can find good LS it is a wonderful addition but hardly necessary for a successful reef tank.

-Well that all depends on what you are trying to acheive, if you want a successful DSB it is definately needed.

i have no disagreement with the support of LS additions, but hermits and snails are not the same conversation.

-Yes, and I also feel that herbivores are an important part of a reef tank that contains healthy fish and corals. Note: I do not consider hermits to be true herbivores.

i have the feeling you see the detritivore kits as i do, they can be found in LR. sure every peice of rock doesn't contain all possible animals for each available kit. but a good mix of quality rock will provide the detritivore kit and then some.

-No I don't presume these animals to be in LR, they may or may not.

your point that nature utilizes snails and hermits doesn't hold any weight with me, there are a great number of things in the ocean that i don't want in my aquarium, hermits being the least offensive.

-Well I disagree with this statement about snails.

have you ever run a reef tank without them? there will be greater diversity from the decreased hermit predation, very noticable actually.

-I have never run a reef tank with more than one or two small hermits in a 180. I don't use hermits as they can destroy a live sand bed. My goal is to have a sand bed which mimics nature, this includes keeping the predator/prey relation in balance.

Posted by Vitz:

i believe the main reason people go crazy with all these turbos and hermits is to remove the algae that they consider to be a nuisance.

-I agree, and would add that they purchase these animals to try and make up for their lousy water quality, a quick fix they hope. In essence all they are doing is adding more bio load to the tank and not trying to strike a balance.

Steve

 

[Expos Forever]

Vitz wrote:

i will never understand why people think that adding more phosphate, and ammonia producing organisms, is going to get rid of algae-it is only 'adding fuel to the fire'

SPC wrote:

-I agree, and would add that they purchase these animals to try and make up for their lousy water quality, a quick fix they hope. In essence all they are doing is adding more bio load to the tank and not trying to strike a balance.

Isn't the fact that hermits also eat detritus and un-eaten meaty foods provide an extra round of digestion that might otherwise be left to rot, negate the balance of the bio load they produce? We are told that fish that eat feces are good for our tanks for this reason. So if we aren't feeding extra food for the hermits aren't they just "extra" digesting things would be that would be there regardless? Especially if they are kept in reasonable numbers?

I fully understand qualms regarding their predation of the sand bed but I question how much impact they have specifically on ammonia production. Am I missing something?

 

[SPC]

Posted by save:

Isn't the fact that hermits also eat detritus and un-eaten meaty foods provide an extra round of digestion that might otherwise be left to rot, negate the balance of the bio load they produce?

-I can't really address the detrius eating part of this as I have no idea how much of this that they actually eat. As far as the meaty foods go, I employ nassarius snails, various worms, small brittle stars and all of the other sand bed animals for this purpose. The difference here, I believe, is that the above animals I have mentioned are not predators on living animals, and hermits are.

Especially if they are kept in reasonable numbers?

-Yes, I feel this is the key. As mentioned above, I have a couple small hermits in my 180 and feel that they are a natural part of my tanks environement.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

hey steve,

i am with ya, for the most part.

Save the expos,

just so you know where i am coming from, i think detritvores and scavengers are very much needed as well, i simply don't feel that hermits are the key players for those positions.