2 days ago i analysed for calcium and my test kit read 950 ppm. obviously that was wrong so i tested again with same results. so i took a sample to pargon aquatic (awesome guys) and he tested and said alk was way to low which it was. it was around 60 mg/l. purchased some dKH superbuffer and dosed. then sampled about 1 hr and 6 hr later. it is up to 80 mg/l but pH is now 8.6 which is expected and i know is normal after dosing, but my calcium is now 300ppm which i don't understand. the buffer says that u can test for alk. an hour later but pH will take as long as 48 hours to stabalize. i dose kalk using a drip for all of my make up which is about 2 gallons a day. i was under the impression that a good kalk mix also helps adjust your alk. how long should i wait to dose alk again to bring it up to the 100-120 range. i know that patience is the key so i'm kind of hesitant to dose again today. i will not dose cal for about 2 days was told it was bad after dosing alk? something about a snow storm? is this going to be an ongoing battle between alk and ca, one up and one down or when i get alk back up should i be able to get cal back up? o yea all other parameters are zero verified with my and lfs test kits( cause someone will ask) :lol:
alk low...dosed dkh now ca low?
- Thread starter r6_rider
- Start date
r6_rider-as you increase the carbonate levels, you also increase the uptake rate of Ca by your critters(up to a certain point).this may explain your Ca drop after adding buffer.
i would get some kits that are more reliable than hagen, for your tank.
(salifert, lamotte, hach come to mind)
imho-anyone using kalkvasser should first get a thorough understanding of the relationships between pH,alk, and Ca levels, as improper dosing with kalk can wreak havoc with all three.get a good book,do a search on the boards, etc.(check out the chemistry forum on this board-you should be able to find good articles)
the 'snow storm' is the result of precipitating out Ca from the water as a result of adding too much carbonates.
sorry, but i don't know conversion tables-you will find 'em in a good book, however. :wink:
get your water tested again, and let us know what all your levels are-numbers,please, not 'low','high','good' or 'bad'. :wink:
fwiw-using kalk improperly can completely wipe out your alk! i would also recommend getting a digital pH meter-very accurate,easy to use- and watching it while dosing kalk will be quite enlightening!
hth
i would get some kits that are more reliable than hagen, for your tank.
(salifert, lamotte, hach come to mind)
imho-anyone using kalkvasser should first get a thorough understanding of the relationships between pH,alk, and Ca levels, as improper dosing with kalk can wreak havoc with all three.get a good book,do a search on the boards, etc.(check out the chemistry forum on this board-you should be able to find good articles)
the 'snow storm' is the result of precipitating out Ca from the water as a result of adding too much carbonates.
sorry, but i don't know conversion tables-you will find 'em in a good book, however. :wink:
get your water tested again, and let us know what all your levels are-numbers,please, not 'low','high','good' or 'bad'. :wink:
fwiw-using kalk improperly can completely wipe out your alk! i would also recommend getting a digital pH meter-very accurate,easy to use- and watching it while dosing kalk will be quite enlightening!
hth
i have duty today so i will do the water change tomorrow and then purchase a new test kit. i don't know about the pH probe sounds like a good idea but a little expensive. (the military just doesn't pay enough). i will check out the chemistry site as being a nuclear mechanic i feel i have an alright understanding as how chemical equations work i just need to find them. i don't own any books, just use the net as my reading material. and print out good topics that i want to keep. the thing that i am trying to understand is the balance between the 2 ....alk and cal. my roommate wouldn't know what or how to test the water so i will do it tomorrow and let u know how it turns out. thx for the replies and direction.
You may find this resouces helpful.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... mistry.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2002/chem.htm
cheers
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... mistry.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2002/chem.htm
cheers
i read both of those articles. even printed them out and read them again. i understand that corals and invertes use calcium and carbonate/bicarbonates to grow there exoskeleton. and that things like phosphates and silicates can affect alk. and that the components of alk. and calcium coexist somehow. and if one is high then more and likely the other is low. it is like stressing one side of a chemical equation (not always true). what i don't understand is the calcium carbonate and how the calcium and carbonates coexist the equation for the 2. it is just not clicking for me, that little light :idea: isn't there. i have surfed the net all day today done searchs here. can someone PLEASE explain this in laymans terms to me. PLEASE!!!!!
i'm very much the layman-but this may help you understand the relationship as it relates to what's going on in your tank,and what you see in your tests.
to use Ca, the corals,corraline,must also uptake carbonates(same w/mag., stront.,etc.)if carbonates are lacking, the Ca, etc. can't be removed from the water, and vice versa-this is why(as i understand it) when alk boosters are added to a tank (that were previously low, with acceptable Ca levels) the Ca level starts to drop-the availability of carbonates helps increase the removal of Ca from the water.
(a slightly lower level of Ca with the correct proportion of alk.is better than high levels of Ca with lacking alk.)hope i'm correct! :wink:
(you may want to pose the question for mr.farley in the chemistry forum)
hth
to use Ca, the corals,corraline,must also uptake carbonates(same w/mag., stront.,etc.)if carbonates are lacking, the Ca, etc. can't be removed from the water, and vice versa-this is why(as i understand it) when alk boosters are added to a tank (that were previously low, with acceptable Ca levels) the Ca level starts to drop-the availability of carbonates helps increase the removal of Ca from the water.
(a slightly lower level of Ca with the correct proportion of alk.is better than high levels of Ca with lacking alk.)hope i'm correct! :wink:
(you may want to pose the question for mr.farley in the chemistry forum)
hth
well i tested my water today when i got home for work and mixed a batch of make up water. my test result were.... alk-90mg/L; Ca-240ppm(i know this is low but will dose tonight); nitrate/nitrite-0; amonia-<.1 and pH-8.3. Hagen say that alk should be around 105-125 for my test kit so hopefully i can bring i back up with the water change tomorrow. i don't know about the Ca. Hopefully it will come up with the dose tonight for tomorrows set of samples. i will keep u posted and hopefully i can get this figure out.
knuckledragger-
My quicky on calcium and alk: Corals, snails, coralline, all stuff makes calcium carbonate (CaCO3). It gets this from the water--calcium and carbonate (carbonate=alk in a saltwater tank). Saltwater has a lot of stuff dissolved in it. There is a maximum amount of combined calcium ion and carbonate that it can maintain in solution. For this reason, if one value is high, the other will be low. Any calcium or alk supplemented in excess of this already supersaturated condition will precipitate out.
Something sounds fishy about your test kit. I would first re-read the instructions carefully (I've made that mistake). I would also get it tested by someone else--you're calcium is swinging WAAAAAAAAAAY too much. If you look at the equations and work the math, for every 0.5 meq/l alk used, you should see a drop of only 10ppm in calcium--really, considering error (a real nuc lab titration is good to 10%--this is a mass produced thing that comes in a box--you see what I mean?), your calcium might not move or even appear to go up. But it certainly shouldn't drop as much as you've seen.
Kalkwasser should add 0.5 meq/l for every 10ppm calcium (works out nice that way).
50mg/l CaCO3 = 1 meq/l. 1 meq/l drop per day is what I would expect to see in an SPS dominated tank with a healthy calcium demand.
Your indications don't jive with the processes that are supposed to be going on. Your pH is bouncing around a bit as well--you may want to check and make sure you're getting plenty of aeration and that the air in the room isn't stale (CO2 concentrations can play with tank pH). Kalkwasser needs CO2 in the water to give you CO3 (alkalinity). One other thing is that kalkwasser introduces raw CaCO3 crystals into the tank--nice clean crystals tend to grow in supersaturated conditions such as a tank, taking calcium and alk out of the water column, until they get clogged up with phosphates and other poisons. For this reason, kalk is believed to cause some degree of precipitation--and this can be confusing if your tank isn't in a stable balance to begin with.
But your alk test should be pretty reliable, and your alk is way low--perhaps your daily usage is more than kalkwasser saturated makeup water can take care of--You may want to add buffer to push up your alk, then take care of calcium with a CaCl product like TurboCalcium. Low alk is the big concern here (with its swinging pH). Low Calcium won't hurt anything (just slow down grown).
So, my recommendation is fix the alk problem first (keep buffering) and stop dripping kalk--get it alk up to at least 125ppm, and find out what your calcium levels actually are (I really think you've got about an 80% chance that your calcium kit is flat out completely out to lunch). I would shoot for a 25ppm CaCO3 increase/day (that would be 1tsp for every 20-30 gallons. Once you establish a nice even keel at say 2.5-4.0 meq/l (125-200ppm CaCO3) and 400-430ppm calcium, then look into trying kalkwasser again. But for right now, I think it's only complicating things.
Hang in there. Hope you're better off than straight 3 section. If I remember right, Rule 2 is "Don't wait up for drills." Rule 1 is.....
Ty (former CRA)
My quicky on calcium and alk: Corals, snails, coralline, all stuff makes calcium carbonate (CaCO3). It gets this from the water--calcium and carbonate (carbonate=alk in a saltwater tank). Saltwater has a lot of stuff dissolved in it. There is a maximum amount of combined calcium ion and carbonate that it can maintain in solution. For this reason, if one value is high, the other will be low. Any calcium or alk supplemented in excess of this already supersaturated condition will precipitate out.
Something sounds fishy about your test kit. I would first re-read the instructions carefully (I've made that mistake). I would also get it tested by someone else--you're calcium is swinging WAAAAAAAAAAY too much. If you look at the equations and work the math, for every 0.5 meq/l alk used, you should see a drop of only 10ppm in calcium--really, considering error (a real nuc lab titration is good to 10%--this is a mass produced thing that comes in a box--you see what I mean?), your calcium might not move or even appear to go up. But it certainly shouldn't drop as much as you've seen.
Kalkwasser should add 0.5 meq/l for every 10ppm calcium (works out nice that way).
50mg/l CaCO3 = 1 meq/l. 1 meq/l drop per day is what I would expect to see in an SPS dominated tank with a healthy calcium demand.
Your indications don't jive with the processes that are supposed to be going on. Your pH is bouncing around a bit as well--you may want to check and make sure you're getting plenty of aeration and that the air in the room isn't stale (CO2 concentrations can play with tank pH). Kalkwasser needs CO2 in the water to give you CO3 (alkalinity). One other thing is that kalkwasser introduces raw CaCO3 crystals into the tank--nice clean crystals tend to grow in supersaturated conditions such as a tank, taking calcium and alk out of the water column, until they get clogged up with phosphates and other poisons. For this reason, kalk is believed to cause some degree of precipitation--and this can be confusing if your tank isn't in a stable balance to begin with.
But your alk test should be pretty reliable, and your alk is way low--perhaps your daily usage is more than kalkwasser saturated makeup water can take care of--You may want to add buffer to push up your alk, then take care of calcium with a CaCl product like TurboCalcium. Low alk is the big concern here (with its swinging pH). Low Calcium won't hurt anything (just slow down grown).
So, my recommendation is fix the alk problem first (keep buffering) and stop dripping kalk--get it alk up to at least 125ppm, and find out what your calcium levels actually are (I really think you've got about an 80% chance that your calcium kit is flat out completely out to lunch). I would shoot for a 25ppm CaCO3 increase/day (that would be 1tsp for every 20-30 gallons. Once you establish a nice even keel at say 2.5-4.0 meq/l (125-200ppm CaCO3) and 400-430ppm calcium, then look into trying kalkwasser again. But for right now, I think it's only complicating things.
Hang in there. Hope you're better off than straight 3 section. If I remember right, Rule 2 is "Don't wait up for drills." Rule 1 is.....
Ty (former CRA)
One other small thing. Lack of magnesium will cause the solubility of calium to go down. If your magnesium is way low, you will never get your levels up. Now that being said, there isn't much in the tank that uses magnesium. If you do somewhat regular waterchanges, it won't be a problem. I doubt it's a player in your case, but it is a part of the big flick.
Ty
Ty
knuckledragger? that is a low blow :lol:
thx for the reply and the laymans terms. it has been about a week now and still is an ongoing battle. i tried dosing just the alk buffer even after the water change and and it seems that the alk has just platued at around 90. i think that the ph swings are due to the buffer that i'm dosing cause before i add it is 8.3-8.5. i don't think that the bio load on the tank is causing the calcium/alk levels to drop that much or that i'm using it up just as fast as i'm adding it. i tried an experiment(nuc experimenting..bad thing) today with some of the water from the tank and mixed the alk buffer in with it. and it just formed a precip on the top. and left the water cloudy? i m/o a new cal test kit being that the lfs that i have found only have the hagen test kit. the corals in the tank seem to be doing fine though. this is quite baffling and frustrating. i did test for calcium today and i think/know that my test kit is way out to lunch cause now according to the test kit i have NO calcium in the tank. i just hate to dose something that i can't test for. and yea we are straight 3 section which SUCKS. :? i will dose the alk tonight and post result tomorrow. any continued help and advice on how to maintain these levels the hard way vice using a reactor is greatly appreciated.
thx for the reply and the laymans terms. it has been about a week now and still is an ongoing battle. i tried dosing just the alk buffer even after the water change and and it seems that the alk has just platued at around 90. i think that the ph swings are due to the buffer that i'm dosing cause before i add it is 8.3-8.5. i don't think that the bio load on the tank is causing the calcium/alk levels to drop that much or that i'm using it up just as fast as i'm adding it. i tried an experiment(nuc experimenting..bad thing) today with some of the water from the tank and mixed the alk buffer in with it. and it just formed a precip on the top. and left the water cloudy? i m/o a new cal test kit being that the lfs that i have found only have the hagen test kit. the corals in the tank seem to be doing fine though. this is quite baffling and frustrating. i did test for calcium today and i think/know that my test kit is way out to lunch cause now according to the test kit i have NO calcium in the tank. i just hate to dose something that i can't test for. and yea we are straight 3 section which SUCKS. :? i will dose the alk tonight and post result tomorrow. any continued help and advice on how to maintain these levels the hard way vice using a reactor is greatly appreciated.
just an update. finally after dosing the dkh superbuffer for over a week now my alk levels are finally in the 2.5-2.8 range. Calcium however that is another story. still waiting on the test kit from big al's. took the water to the lfs and calcium levels were below 200 ppm. my question now is the alk levels going to drop drastically when i dose the kalkwasser tomorrow night? i will keep u posted.
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