Something else everyone is missing is that IO is not the same salt it was in '99, and I bet my bottom dollar that a current assay would look significantly different than what was done in 99. Crystal sea has been my favorite salt for about 18 months now, but not because dr. ron said it was better.. I use craploads of salt and noticed IO was no longer the same salt it was 5 years ago and switched. I'd be really interested in seeing a current assay of the major brands... even if dr. ron is off his rocker, it's nice to know what is really in things you put in your tank.
Interesting info about some salt mixes
- Thread starter dragon0121
- Start date
vitz":258vy90x said:
Vitz,
You didn't actually say that, did you? Many times their own weight? You mean I can have a 5 pound urchin, and four pounds of it can be lead? :lol:
Anyway, it seems that several here are actually arguing Dr. Ron's point (while arguing against his study). Dr. Ron has hypothesized that tanks eventually reach their "carrying limit" for heavy metals (or one toxic substance at a time - different carrying capacities...). Bonding or binding aside, the "carrying capacity" of any tank can be effected by a variety of biological factors which we don't understand (again, one of his points was that since we don't know what these factors are, there is no way of knowing if any particular tank has some of the factors, all of them, or none of them...so there's really no way of knowing if any particular system is likely to be "sensitive" to an overabundance of "trace" elements). As Dr. Ron opined, it would seem the prudent thing would be to limit the input of these elements wherever possible.
Now that we know there is a salt mix that come close to NSW in its effect on a sensitive organism, why not use it (or better yet, why not pressure the major salt manufacturers to "clean up" their salt, since they can't rely on the "it's too expensive for anyone to do that" argument any longer).
FWIW,
Kevin
Anemone":1b2kvpkq said:
ooops
i meant to say that they can absorb heavy metals at a concentration many times the level that they are found in concentration of nsw.
one that immediately comes to mind are brine shrimp-which were even used for the purpose of water 'filtration'/processing-at least experimentally, some years back
For sure there are some detoxification processes going on even as we dissolved the salt. Everybody knows that freshly mix salt water is deadly to our animals, even if salinity and temperatures are matched and well oxygenated. After 1 day the water is safe, even without exposure to algae, rock or sand.
The content analysis of the various salts was not done by Dr. Ron, but by some other people. This analysis several years ago shows that certain salt mix have metals many, many time higher than NSW. While it is true that what we use up to now does not kill our animal outright. Dr. Ron bioassay certainly seems to show that these metals may not be as benign as many people seem to think. Certainly there could be other factors, however unlikely, that can account for the outcome. I, for one, wanted to minimize the toxic material that I put in my tank even knowing that there are unknow process that detoxified these metals going on in the water and the tank. I would love to have the bioassay repeat and data analyze with a wider variety of salt on the market. I would also love to have a rigorous analysis of the content of the salts available today.
Minh Nguyen
The content analysis of the various salts was not done by Dr. Ron, but by some other people. This analysis several years ago shows that certain salt mix have metals many, many time higher than NSW. While it is true that what we use up to now does not kill our animal outright. Dr. Ron bioassay certainly seems to show that these metals may not be as benign as many people seem to think. Certainly there could be other factors, however unlikely, that can account for the outcome. I, for one, wanted to minimize the toxic material that I put in my tank even knowing that there are unknow process that detoxified these metals going on in the water and the tank. I would love to have the bioassay repeat and data analyze with a wider variety of salt on the market. I would also love to have a rigorous analysis of the content of the salts available today.
Minh Nguyen
I must admit, there are a few questions which have been raised by Dr. Shimek's article. While I certainly appreciate the work and effort that he put into it, I think it would have been wise to allow the results to speak for themselves rather than include a link to his favorite online store...
Second, if you allow the results to speak for themself, then all that you have is that FRESHLY mixed synthetic salts by Instant Ocean and Coralife MAY have an increased mortality rate of a sensative invertebrate. I dont know if I would have jumped to the conclusion that it was the heavy metals.
An interesting note: Dr. Shimek posted online that he also had a higher rate of deformed larvae in the IO and Coralife beakers. If he would have discussed this in his article it certainly would have strengthened the argument that a polutant was involved. Although I would have also liked to have seen other test parameters such as ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, etc. I also would have liked to have seen a control with higher ammonia levels in Natural Salt Water (I believe that IO and Coralife both have higher than normal ammonia levels when first mixed.)
Dr. Shimek's article is an excellent starting point. I personally think that the real question that needs to be asked and answered is WHY did he get the results he got? He stated (In a public forum) that there was an increased rate of deformity of larvae in IO and Coralife, has it been determined whether or not Arbacia punctulata larvae have a higher than normal sensitivity to any one compound or water parameter? (ie: Ammonia)
At the very least, his article tells us that we need to be careful with freshly mixed salt water. Perhaps the use of activate carbon in the mixing container would be helpful? His article has certainly been an eye opener, and I am eagerly awaiting followup research based on the work that Atkinson/Bingman and now Shimek have done.
-Alfred
(I will also post this message on Shimek's forum in RC to be fair.)
Second, if you allow the results to speak for themself, then all that you have is that FRESHLY mixed synthetic salts by Instant Ocean and Coralife MAY have an increased mortality rate of a sensative invertebrate. I dont know if I would have jumped to the conclusion that it was the heavy metals.
An interesting note: Dr. Shimek posted online that he also had a higher rate of deformed larvae in the IO and Coralife beakers. If he would have discussed this in his article it certainly would have strengthened the argument that a polutant was involved. Although I would have also liked to have seen other test parameters such as ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, etc. I also would have liked to have seen a control with higher ammonia levels in Natural Salt Water (I believe that IO and Coralife both have higher than normal ammonia levels when first mixed.)
Dr. Shimek's article is an excellent starting point. I personally think that the real question that needs to be asked and answered is WHY did he get the results he got? He stated (In a public forum) that there was an increased rate of deformity of larvae in IO and Coralife, has it been determined whether or not Arbacia punctulata larvae have a higher than normal sensitivity to any one compound or water parameter? (ie: Ammonia)
At the very least, his article tells us that we need to be careful with freshly mixed salt water. Perhaps the use of activate carbon in the mixing container would be helpful? His article has certainly been an eye opener, and I am eagerly awaiting followup research based on the work that Atkinson/Bingman and now Shimek have done.
-Alfred
(I will also post this message on Shimek's forum in RC to be fair.)
It's funny how many people are interested in tearing down other people, any way possible. Especially with inuendo, false claims, and accusations of impropriety. Dr. Ron only tested 4 salts, because, gasp, it was all he could afford, he mentioned this. The salts were either present, donated, or recommended by a phytoplankton grower, as was mentioned. The link to the sight selling salt, was not included in the article by Dr. Ron, it was recommended by one of the editors of the magazine, to make it easy for hobbiests to find the salts that tested well. I mean, why should a magazine dedicated to helping hobbiests actually provide them with something practical, like where to buy something. I don't think most people have actually read the full article, with the accusations they make. Dr. Ron states, more tests are needed, just step up and foot the bill, like he did. He tells you that it is a small test of a single species and that even he wasn't expecting such a drastic difference. He felt all salts would be equally bad, with slight variations. He tells you, we don't know what happens to the heavy metals, just that they are considered toxic to marine life, like corals, in a lot of peer review articles. He does make a recommendation, what he is going to do, and tells you why. You are free to do whatever you want, but if you want to prove the test results wrong, perform some sort of controlled experiment don't just say he is lying.
I would never call into question Dr. Shimek's integrity... That is a pretty serious accusation. I did not know that the link to the salt was added by someone else, in fact, I could not find it in his article as of this morning.
His research is an important starting point, if anything, it has opened peoples eyes and I am sure will encourage furthur research.
It is unfortunate that his hands were tied due to monetary and space constraints, it would have been great to see a few more controls added and to see other brands tested. Not to mention follow-up on his results. (The "why's" need to be addressed) I am personally thankful for the hardwork he has done. All of the debates that have started are a good thing for our hobby, IMHO.
-Alfred
His research is an important starting point, if anything, it has opened peoples eyes and I am sure will encourage furthur research.
It is unfortunate that his hands were tied due to monetary and space constraints, it would have been great to see a few more controls added and to see other brands tested. Not to mention follow-up on his results. (The "why's" need to be addressed) I am personally thankful for the hardwork he has done. All of the debates that have started are a good thing for our hobby, IMHO.
-Alfred
- Location
- Palatine IL
Over the past three years I used Biosea, instant ocean , tropic marin. My prefered salt is Biosea. Unfortunately I have a hard time locating a LFS that carries it. Any one knows where to get it on the net. or LFS in Illinois. I believing in rdg articles & judjing products based on actual performance in my tank.(180G reef). Any research is better than no research. We each can decide on our own what works best for us....
JeremyR,
I plan on ordering 3 buckets of salt tomorrow. I also believe in Dr.Ron and i think the study is a good one. I took it for what its worth and decided to go with crystal sea. I see that you used it before and liked it. Do you use the bioassay formula or the regular marinemix formula(one with the dechlorinator)? Have any problems with it or is it just perfect? I was gonna buy the bioassay formula but i found out that it will cost over $50 for 1 bucket shipped and i can get the regular one for far less.
Thanks a lot.
Alex
I plan on ordering 3 buckets of salt tomorrow. I also believe in Dr.Ron and i think the study is a good one. I took it for what its worth and decided to go with crystal sea. I see that you used it before and liked it. Do you use the bioassay formula or the regular marinemix formula(one with the dechlorinator)? Have any problems with it or is it just perfect? I was gonna buy the bioassay formula but i found out that it will cost over $50 for 1 bucket shipped and i can get the regular one for far less.
Thanks a lot.
Alex
O.K., I want to start the initial planning for a definitive analysis of currently available salt mixes.
As I mentioned before, the cost of this will be considerable. When we had Miracle Mud analyzed the cost to us was $300, and that was just for one sample. I think the Combi-San analysis was a little less because a liquid has less sample prep. I'll have to check if we can get a better price for the number of samples we are talking about.
We would do three samples of each, and try to get different batches by ordering a couple months apart and/or from different suppliers. We can get most of the salts from our wholesale distributors, but will have to order some from other retailers. I don't want to take any samples direct from the manufacturers.
The initial salt list is:
Aquacraft Bio-Sea Marinemix
Aquacraft Coral Marine Sea Salt
Aquacraft Marine Environment
Aquarium Systems Instant Ocean
Aquarium Systems Reef Crystals
Coralife Salt
Kent Marine Sea Salt
Marine Enterprises Crystal Sea Marinemix
Red Sea Fish Pharm Sea Salt
SeaChem Sea Salt
Sera Premium Sea Salt
Tropic Marin Sea Salt
Waterlife Ultramarine
Wiegandt HW Marine Mix
If there are any salts missing, please post, as well as where you order it from if it's an obscure brand.
We're not concerned about the cost of getting the salt, but, if the analysis is $300 each, the total would be $13,500 total (14 salts plus natural sea water - 3 samples of each).
Business is good, but not good enough to fund this!
Ideas for funding are welcome. Donations from individuals may work, but I think it will be tough to generate this much. It would be great if we got $1000 from each manufacturer, but I'm not too sure if any would be proud enough of the results to do it.
As I mentioned before, the cost of this will be considerable. When we had Miracle Mud analyzed the cost to us was $300, and that was just for one sample. I think the Combi-San analysis was a little less because a liquid has less sample prep. I'll have to check if we can get a better price for the number of samples we are talking about.
We would do three samples of each, and try to get different batches by ordering a couple months apart and/or from different suppliers. We can get most of the salts from our wholesale distributors, but will have to order some from other retailers. I don't want to take any samples direct from the manufacturers.
The initial salt list is:
Aquacraft Bio-Sea Marinemix
Aquacraft Coral Marine Sea Salt
Aquacraft Marine Environment
Aquarium Systems Instant Ocean
Aquarium Systems Reef Crystals
Coralife Salt
Kent Marine Sea Salt
Marine Enterprises Crystal Sea Marinemix
Red Sea Fish Pharm Sea Salt
SeaChem Sea Salt
Sera Premium Sea Salt
Tropic Marin Sea Salt
Waterlife Ultramarine
Wiegandt HW Marine Mix
If there are any salts missing, please post, as well as where you order it from if it's an obscure brand.
We're not concerned about the cost of getting the salt, but, if the analysis is $300 each, the total would be $13,500 total (14 salts plus natural sea water - 3 samples of each).
Business is good, but not good enough to fund this!
Ideas for funding are welcome. Donations from individuals may work, but I think it will be tough to generate this much. It would be great if we got $1000 from each manufacturer, but I'm not too sure if any would be proud enough of the results to do it.
In any testing, I would like to see other parameters tested as well. Parameters such as ammonia, nitrate, nitrite. I would also like to see tests done on the same water samples, but after they have been run through activated carbon.
I'd be willing to kick in a few dollars. ($20)
-Alfred
I'd be willing to kick in a few dollars. ($20)
-Alfred
Vitz -
We're open to suggestion, but my initial plan is:
1) Mix a quantity of each salt with the same batch of RO/DI water.
2) Let stand a number of days - we don't want to measure "freshly mixed" and it would be difficult to provide aeration in a manner that is identical to each sample.
3) Test pH periodically during the wait period.
4) Take the samples to Northern Analytical Labs (the same people we used for Miracle Mud and Combi-San) for an Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry (ICPMS) test.
5) Publish results.
I think Dr. Shimek has shown that there may be substances in salt mixes that are inimical to some marine life. We now need an independent measurement of these salts to see if we can conclusively determine the difference that would explain Shimek's results. I am concerned that no analysis was done on the two that Skimek reported the best results for -- he just used the manufacturer's advertising literature! We have seen before what value that has (remember Combi-San). Additionally, those two salts were not included in Atkinson and Bingman's analysis.
The ICPMS test will give elemental amounts for everthing from Lithium to Uranium down to the parts per trillion level. To answer another poster's question, we can't get ammonia, nitrate or nitrite in this test, since they are compounds. I can check if there is another test that can be performed to get these quantities, but we are already looking at price as the largest obstacle. Using a hobbyist grade test kit would be a waste of time IMO.
I'll have to check with the lab to see if a dry sample would be better for elemental analysis -- it would rule out any possible contribution from the water, but using identical water would also handle that. I suppose we could mix samples to determine the amount required for identical s.g., and to test for pH, and then take dry salt samples to the lab.
We're open to suggestion, but my initial plan is:
1) Mix a quantity of each salt with the same batch of RO/DI water.
2) Let stand a number of days - we don't want to measure "freshly mixed" and it would be difficult to provide aeration in a manner that is identical to each sample.
3) Test pH periodically during the wait period.
4) Take the samples to Northern Analytical Labs (the same people we used for Miracle Mud and Combi-San) for an Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry (ICPMS) test.
5) Publish results.
I think Dr. Shimek has shown that there may be substances in salt mixes that are inimical to some marine life. We now need an independent measurement of these salts to see if we can conclusively determine the difference that would explain Shimek's results. I am concerned that no analysis was done on the two that Skimek reported the best results for -- he just used the manufacturer's advertising literature! We have seen before what value that has (remember Combi-San). Additionally, those two salts were not included in Atkinson and Bingman's analysis.
The ICPMS test will give elemental amounts for everthing from Lithium to Uranium down to the parts per trillion level. To answer another poster's question, we can't get ammonia, nitrate or nitrite in this test, since they are compounds. I can check if there is another test that can be performed to get these quantities, but we are already looking at price as the largest obstacle. Using a hobbyist grade test kit would be a waste of time IMO.
I'll have to check with the lab to see if a dry sample would be better for elemental analysis -- it would rule out any possible contribution from the water, but using identical water would also handle that. I suppose we could mix samples to determine the amount required for identical s.g., and to test for pH, and then take dry salt samples to the lab.
MattM":3rm6cc74 said:
Does this make it clear finally, to all of the naysayers, why Dr. Shimek only tested four salts, with money out of his pocket! 8O What's funny is, all of the people saying more salts needed testing because Ron was biased, haven't stepped up and donated their $1000 yet! Put your money where your mouth is, as the old saying goes! LOL!
dragon0121":27gihham said:
He did a bioassay, but not analysis of salt contend of the salt. This should be much less expensive than chemical analysis. The only additonal cost would be obtain the salt and mix them. He should have plenty eggs for all tests.
Minh Nguyen
O.K., I just spoke to the lab.
If we get ICPMS with a 1% accuracy, the cost will be $280 per test for the quantity we are running. So the total will be $13,400, assuming we get a sample of the AquaMedic salt (15 salts plus NSW X 3 samples).
They also have a semi-quantitative test that has an accuracy of 50%, i.e. if a certain element is 10ppm it could be reported anywhere from 5ppm to 15ppm. That test is $200 each for a total of $9600. I think this test is designed more to determine if something is present at all, rather than to determine relative amounts, so it's probably not what we need.
What do you think about a raffle to raise money? We pick some high-value item that everyone wants and sell tickets for $10 each? Maybe a couple other stores could do this too with different items. After covering the wholesale cost of the prize, the rest would go towards the salt test.
Ideas?
If we get ICPMS with a 1% accuracy, the cost will be $280 per test for the quantity we are running. So the total will be $13,400, assuming we get a sample of the AquaMedic salt (15 salts plus NSW X 3 samples).
They also have a semi-quantitative test that has an accuracy of 50%, i.e. if a certain element is 10ppm it could be reported anywhere from 5ppm to 15ppm. That test is $200 each for a total of $9600. I think this test is designed more to determine if something is present at all, rather than to determine relative amounts, so it's probably not what we need.
What do you think about a raffle to raise money? We pick some high-value item that everyone wants and sell tickets for $10 each? Maybe a couple other stores could do this too with different items. After covering the wholesale cost of the prize, the rest would go towards the salt test.
Ideas?
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