Has anyone been following this

[reeferism]

Found an interesting thread about the pitfalls of using a DSB, thought it was interesting

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showt ... genumber=1


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[Markymarklar]

a good reminder to us all. we may set up a tank that has something to break down anything, but in the end, we will still have to do that "one big cleaning" per year. just siphon out the accumulated crap once or twice a year and you'll be fine.

 

[Len]

I don't pretend to know all dynamics and long term efficacy of DSBs, but I can tell you these five facts:
1) My tank is nearing 8 years old.
2) I have never changed out my substrate (yes, I started using "DSBs" well before they were in vogue).
3) I have lightly vacuumed my substrate no more then 3 times (last time was probably 4 years ago).
4) I perform very infrequent water changes since the first year of the aquarium. If I had to take a guess, I'd say I averaged one 20% water change a year.
5) My tank is doing as well today as it was 5 years ago.

Go figure.

I used to be afraid detailing to others my lax approach to reefkeeping, fearing my experiences may inspire bad work ethics for new reefkeepers. But in all honesty it's worked for me, and I figured I shouldn't be ashamed of telling others that it has, if not just to temper all the doomsday predications rampant nowadays. Of course, you'll mileage will vary, so do not blindly follow my methodology. I just wanted to offer another side of the story.

 

[Anonymous]

Len,

I would like to duplicate your setup for my new reef. Can you approximate the cost involved? Thanks.

Peace,

Chip

 

[Anonymous]

Interesting but I had heard about these problems before with DSB's. I am going with one in my 75 gallon for real this time (last tank had too many fauna depleting critters like my peppermints).

Len - I am pretty good about maintenance but in addition to KISS - the best rule I can give people is keep your hands out of the tank and let it be. Mine seems to do best when I'm not fiddling with it all the time and aside form checking PH, SG and alk plus topoffs that's about all I do on my larger reef.

 

[reeferism]

Len I also have neer done a water change on my system. I recently did an upgrade on my tank and had to remove an old DSB, I would say about 4.5 years old). When I removed it I noticed that the bottom 1/2 was pure diterious with a little silt mixed it. It is quite a hard choice, a DSB is an awesome denitrifier but the problem seems to be that it is on a clock. On mt new setup I have taken the DSB out of the main and have put it in a remote location where I can maintain it and hopefully not allow the concintrations I had in my old bed.
What disturbs me most about this link above is that the Marine Biologist seem to be treating this as common knowledge. Its funny I cant recall ever reading about it in the DSB promoters articles???

ya never stop learning

 

[reefann]

HMMM That was very good to read.
Len I also would like to hear more about your set-up.
I have been talking back and forth with a marine biologist and recently asked him his thoughts about DSB's. I cant wait to hear what back from him to see what his thoughts are.
_________________
Rent guarantee Forum

 

[wombat1]

I stopped reading when the admin wrote something like "There is more surface area on a rock than in a similarly sized DSB." All other points aside, this just isn't true.

There is absolutely no concrete evidence that a tank with a DSB can't last a long time. There IS a lot of anecdotal evidence like "My tank crashed after 4 years, and I have a DSB", but this could be attributed to several other factors.

 

[reeferism]

I stopped reading when the admin wrote something like "There is more surface area on a rock than in a similarly sized DSB." All other points aside, this just isn't true.

I would be interested why you would agree with that? It is a common misunderstanding that when one measures the surface area of a LR they think that it is just the outside layer. One has to remember that LR (in most all cases) is the old skeliton of and ancient or old died coral. If one looks at a coral skeliton under a microscope you can see that it is completely pourous all the way through. Basically filled with microscopic tunnels, cavities and so on. Now if you started to count up the surface areas of all of that I think it would be pretty darn close to a DSB.

I dont think any of them are really saying a DSB has (as in the sand) has a life span. More like that the accumulation of these biproducts that has a clock on it.

 

[reeferism]

There is absolutely no concrete evidence that a tank with a DSB can't last a long time. There IS a lot of anecdotal evidence like "My tank crashed after 4 years, and I have a DSB", but this could be attributed to several other factors.

See I think that is what these Marine Biologists are trying to bring to the table. That thier is proof in the wild that show that DSB's will have a clock on the matter the can hold. This is based on Bioload, maintence and so on.

 

[Mouse]

Wow, quite a read there. Ive allways thought that DSB's should be in the refugeum, if only to keep it safe from an unexpected hitchikee like a pistol from burrowing into it. But what im thinking about this detreus buildup is that if you have enough calurpa in the fuge it must absorb some of it. If you place a plant in a plant pot doesn't it dissipate the soil inside the pot as it grows, absorbing the matter into itself to grow. And working on the assumption that plants, not being calcius organisms will need some kind of bio matter to grow new structures, well isn't detritus it?

 

[leftovers]

Well, the arguement that DSB's become a nutrient sink or cesspool is only partly true. In the wild the deep parts of the ocean has hundreds of feet of detritus thats fed on and consumed and crapped out again its one giant cess pool and as deep water ocean currents move inland and up they bring a lot of that cess back to the reef to be consumed. Even the local reef zone is accumulating detritus and crap as well as new sand every day. The difference will be how effective is your sand processing...i.e. how well do the animals work and how many do you have to do the work. Like anything the more diverse and the more varied the fauna the more likely you are to have an efficient bed and while thats probably an oversimplification it also holds a grain of truth. The ocean has incredible diversity our tanks have but a very very small sliver. The most effective tanks seem to have either a TON of technology to keep them clean or a ton of different animals to keep it clean.

either way all this discussion really shows us is that we know next to nothing still about the biomes we strive to replicate.

 

[reefNewbie]

this is why they have recharge kits. which is why dr. ron, in his "deep sand bed secrets" recommends adding a recharge kit every year.

 

[Len]

I don't completely understand the concept of recharge kits. Are we to infer that sandbed populations dwindle over time? Doesn't make sense to me. Or are we to infer that sandbed populations become more monospecific/homogenized over time? This is highly plausible, but adding any "recharge kits" can't possibly have much effect. The entreched species will, in all likelihood, choke out any new species, with only extremely strong, invasive organisms able to compet. Over time, these species will subsequently become the overbearingly dominant species. Maybe that's the point then ..... sequential diversity, sorta speak, not concurrent diversity (?) Or maybe I'm just way off base

As for my tank, some older (but for the most part, still current) information can be found at http://www.reefscapes.net/120gallon.html

I really can't say with confidence why my tank operates as smoothly as it does. I agree with others' experiences that tanks do far better left untouched then with constant miggling.

I also try to maintain stability in all facets the best I can, and employ a lot of equipment to achieve this. Chiller helps maintain my temperature steady, while Ca reactor and kalkreactor keeps my Ca/alk/pH levels relatively stable. Dosing pump maintains salinity steady throughout the day. I understand that nature can be dynamic at times, but it needs reminding that captive aquariums are far from a mirror of nature, and a lot less tolerant. Fact is, the worst events that occurred in my tank are almost always results of failure from one of these "stabilizing" equipments. I honestly believe stability is a major factor in my reef's continued success.

I did A LOT of upkeep work the first year of my aquarium including regular water changes and a lot of manual algae removal. After the "break in" period was over, I've had more or less a hands-off approach to my reef tank, and it's been doing well on its own ever since. Things literally just worked themselves out in my tank. Even Valonia has gone away on its own recently.

Nowadays, my primary nutrient exports are macroalgae (particularly Hamileda) and my protein skimmer. It's interesting to note I have copious growth of Bryposis-like algae in my overflow (which I harvest occassionally) but have non in the tank itself. I use RO/DI water for top off, and feed Prime Reef (frozen version) moderately daily. For about a two year period, I fed very infrequently but found my fish and corals suffered as a result. And as stated, I don't change my water often, nor do I turn over the sandbed or recharge it ever.

FYI: I did away with my moon phase bulb since spawning events wrecked havoc on my tank. Since removing the system last Novemeber, I haven't had a spawn again. So I guess the moon cycle does work. We'll see what happens early May and late September, when spawning usually occurs in my tank.

I'm sure my substrate's lower stratas are nothing but silt. But I haven't had a problem with this yet, and don't speculate it to be a problem for the foreseeable future.

Chip,
My aquarium costs me quite a substantial amount. If had i to venture a guess, I'd say somewhere around $5-6K just for the equipment/tank alone. That's the price I pay for automation :?

 

[wombat1]

I would be interested why you would agree with that? It is a common misunderstanding that when one measures the surface area of a LR they think that it is just the outside layer. One has to remember that LR (in most all cases) is the old skeliton of and ancient or old died coral. If one looks at a coral skeliton under a microscope you can see that it is completely pourous all the way through. Basically filled with microscopic tunnels, cavities and so on. Now if you started to count up the surface areas of all of that I think it would be pretty darn close to a DSB.

You're absolutely right. LR has a ton of surface area, but I'm quite sure a DSB has more.

 

[reeferism]

YOu are correct on the sand wombat, but it is not as big a difference as most would believe. Len I have always preached the hands off meathod to, although I will be the first to admit I find my hands in thier a bit more then they should. I have run my systems in a number of different ways, from DSB in the main to bare to CC. I have always found that an ammount of deterus will form in one location or another no matter what the system. And I have always removed it no matter what system. On my current system I have gone with a decorative CC substraight (basically to just cover the bare bottom) purposely avoiding an anerabic zone and practice a cleaning regemine. Even this thin layer is teaming with larger infuan such as worms of many kinds and pods. I decided to keep the use of a DSB but I did it in a remote location (2 55 gallon through feeders pictured below). They are set up so that maintencee can be done by isolating the beds, performing the clean up and then turning them on again. I have also used a lot of flow in the tank (13000gph) to keep the organics in the water column where they can eventually get processed be the skimmer.

mike

 

[Anonymous]

I don't pretend to know all dynamics and long term efficacy of DSBs, but I can tell you these five facts:
1) My tank is nearing 8 years old.
2) I have never changed out my substrate (yes, I started using "DSBs" well before they were in vogue).
3) I have lightly vacuumed my substrate no more then 3 times (last time was probably 4 years ago).
4) I perform very infrequent water changes since the first year of the aquarium. If I had to take a guess, I'd say I averaged one 20% water change a year.
5) My tank is doing as well today as it was 5 years ago.

Go figure.

I used to be afraid detailing to others my lax approach to reefkeeping, fearing my experiences may inspire bad work ethics for new reefkeepers. But in all honesty it's worked for me, and I figured I shouldn't be ashamed of telling others that it has, if not just to temper all the doomsday predications rampant nowadays. Of course, you'll mileage will vary, so do not blindly follow my methodology. I just wanted to offer another side of the story.

:lol: We run tanks a lot alike, Len. I rarely add much of anything to the tank, do water changes at one or two random intervals throughout the year, and can go months without even checking salinity. My bulbs are upwards of 2 years old now and my gigantea anemone's oral disc is about 18" across. The key--I watch my animals! When my buttons and mushrooms shrivel, or when my anemone's tentacles are withdrawn a half inch for more than a day or so, I do a couple of checks. And I have to feed that tank heavily too--I've got some serious pigs for fish in there. I figure nature doesn't have UV sterilizers, calcium reactors, and orp monitors, so neither do I. Like Len says though, ymmv, but this is the approach that works best for me.

-John

 

[Unarce]

In the very few posts that I've made, I sometimes mentioned how a DSB can hurt a system in the long run. Some of us have known this for the last dozen or so years. I agree that some of the processes of a sand bed can be helpful and a reef looks nicer with one, but it should be used moderately and stirred occasionally to reduce dead spots where these harmful buildups occur. 5 years really isn't long for a set-up, but it really depends on what you're keeping. Easy stuff like FOWLR or softies could survive through all this in a sand or mud environment.

I'd really like to hear from those who've maintained a DSB successfully for 10+ years consecutively and hear what their secrets are. Especially if you've been able to keep clams and SPS stuff.

Like Sharkky, I never got into all the technological advances and avoided using UV sterilizers, mechanical filtration, protein skimmers, etc.