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uryy4me

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Fortunately I do not think I really need to worry about cooling my tank beyond a bit of surface air movement, but I do think I need to concern myself with heating it (150g sump sits on a Minnesota basement concrete slab and I generally keep the inside air temp @ 70-72 degrees).

What follows is is way more thought than probably justified, but after thinking about my initial plan of just dropping 2 500w heaters in the sump both set to 78 degrees does make me a bit uncomfortable with the thought that 1000w surges could come and go all day long. So, as an alternative.....?

I don't know if household heating principles apply to heating a tank, but I would think they would and therefore I would have thought that running the smallest heating unit that while continuously running at a constant speed is preferred to a larger unit that is always firing up and shutting down.

With this in mind, I was wondering how I could determine what size heater could warm/maintain say 500gallons at approx 5-7 degrees above ambient temperature.

This I would designate as my primary heater. For colder days where the heater cannot keep up, a secondary heater capable of making up the few extra needed degrees would kick in if the primary was not able to keep up (i.e. set to start up if the temp dropped 2 degrees below desired temp).

So, if it was determined that a 500w heater could serve the role as the primary heater, a 250w heater may function well as a secondary heater which would only come on occasionally.

I guess this an possibly be taken further where one smaller heater can be set at the optimal temperature, another similar heater a couple degrees lower and a third a few degrees lower than that (e.g. primary 250w set @ 78, secondary 250w set @ 76, tertiary 250w set @ 74)

Thoughts?

tia

- scott -
 

Mogo

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I use 2 x 200W Tronic heaters located horizontal in my sump. My sump is also located in a cool basement. My water temp has never wavered off 80 degrees except at night when the lights are off when it goes down to 78. My fishroom temp varies seasonally between 72 and 75. The water temp has always been very consistent. My tank is 140 gal. Sump 30 gal. with usually about 15 gal running through it. That works out to about 3 Watts per gallon. Works for me...
 

uryy4me

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Mogo - Your computation of 3 watts per gallon is kinda the reason for asking my question. In a 500g setup we are looking at 1500w for heating and if this demand is coming and going several times a day it makes me wonder if; a) it is an efficent use of energy, b) how this may increase my odds of blowing a circuit (12.5 amp draw?) and/or dammage equipment?

Maybe I am not lookig at this correctly, but rather than having short bursts of 12.5 amp might it not be better to have say somethign like a constant 5 amp draw and when need incremental increases to say 7 amps then if needed 9 amps and possibly never need to jump to 12.5?
 
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Anonymous

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I'm a big proponent of dividing heating duties (especially in a situation as yours) between two or more heaters.

1: No one heater has to "do all the work". This is generally more efficient, and leads to longer-lasting heating elements.
2: Say the heater that is properly sized for your tank gets stuck on--your tank is now COOKED.
3: Say the heater gets stuck off--your tank is now FROZEN

I like to place the heating units as far away from each other as possible, this leads to fewer hot and cold areas, more consistent temps throughout the system.

If you can get some styrofoam or other suitable insulation under that sump, you'll be better off. Also, consider using pipe insulation for lines leading to and from the tank. Insulating underneath and behind is a good idea as well.
 

uryy4me

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I don't think I am really making myself all that clear, or maybe I am? I have my sump sitting directly on the basement floor as a means of offsetting heat from lamp and pumps (thinking it is more efficient to heat than to cool).

Given that more than one heater will be used to address issues of failover and that all heaters will either reside in a sump (150g) or fuge (60g), what are the pros and cons to each of the following configurations:

(all configs are based on a target of 1000W max heating capacity, not sure if this is the right number for my tank though?)

Config - 1

Heater 1 - 250w/2 amps starts at 1 degree below desired ambient temp
Heater 2 - 250w/2 amps starts at 2 degree below desired ambient temp
Heater 3 - 250w/2 amps starts at 3 degree below desired ambient temp
Heater 4 - 250w/2 amps starts at 4 degree below desired ambient temp

Pros - attempting to heat upon demand, minimizes amperage spike (assuming heaters 3 & 4 are rarely used)
- heaters are generally on or off, there is not a lot of cycling on or off (exception being the last heater in the "pecking order"

Cons - when the heating demand is high, the temp must drop 4 degrees until all heaters are activated (but this would tend to suggest heaters 1,2,3 are either under sized or there was a failure?)

Config - 2

Heater 1 - 250w/2 amps starts at 1 degree below desired ambient temp
Heater 2 - 250w/2 amps starts at 1 degree below desired ambient temp
Heater 3 - 250w/2 amps starts at 1 degree below desired ambient temp
Heater 4 - 250w/2 amps starts at 1 degree below desired ambient temp

Pros - attempting to maintain the tank at a temperature no less than desired

Cons - whenever heat is needed there is a 8 amp demand and heating cycles are short and frequent


Config - 3

Heater 1 - 500w/4 amps starts at 1 degree below desired ambient temp
Heater 2 - 500w/4 amps starts at 3 degree below desired ambient temp

Pros - attempting to heat upon demand, minimizes amperage spike (but not as much as in config 1)
- heater 1 is generally on or off for long periods of time, heater 2 may cycle on and off depending on the demand and the ability for heater 1 to keep up with it.

Cons - when the heating demand is high, the temp must drop 3 degrees until both heaters are activated
- min 4 amp draw is needed even when the slightest amount of heat is needed

Config - 4

Heater 1 - 500w/4 amps starts at 1 degree below desired ambient temp
Heater 2 - 500w/4 amps starts at 1 degree below desired ambient temp

Pros - attempting to maintain the tank at a temperature no less than desired

Cons - whenever heat is needed there is a 8 amp demand and heating cycles are short and frequent

I realize there are a lot of other configurations but I don't want to make this any more absurd of a thread than it already is :D

I suppose the importance of each of these configs may vary with the size of the system. For example, smaller systems that are naturally more sensitive to heat influences and may find it more important to keep things as stable as possible using fewer larger heaters that cycle on and off more frequently where as larger systems that are less prone may want to use more smaller heaters that may remain on more often and only add demand/capacity as it is called for?...is any of this making sense to anyone else? Somebody please tell me how to heat my 500g system so I can move on and think about something more entertaining! :D
 
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Anonymous

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WOW! :lol: I'm flumoxed there, I'd have to actually take some colored or marked sticks and lay it out physically to be sure I've got my mind wrapped around this. So, what you're saying (and I misunderstood) is that you ARE going with multiple heaters, your question revolves around type and configuration. At this point, I'm ready to tell you to do what retailers and wholesalers do--heat the AIR and let the ambient temperature be what determines overall system temp.

I believe you are correct, as far as I know it does take more energy to remove heat than to make heat, but I haven't got my records and calculations from SDG&E, or my formulae into which I simply plugged in the numbers to arrive at answers (I required a tutor to get through basic algebra).

However, I am more inclined to go with higher wattage heaters (just going by gut here, I have no facts or numbers to back this up and may be completely assbackwards), with staggered settings as you've shown in Configuration 4. However, what about adding one more heater to that configuration? Because as you have it, you're only allowing 1W/gallon/heater, I would allow 2 (habit, and what the oldtimers taught me--again, no numbers or hard facts to offer up). Set two of the three to the desired system temperature (though I've never set up in that manner, as I prefer to keep temps as stable as possible, and I've always set them to same temp to allow for inconsistencies in thermostats). I have to admit, each and every large (between 250-3000 gals) system I've worked with relied upon ambient air temperature to maintain system temp.

Now I'm confused, I'm gonna go work out. :lol:
 

uryy4me

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Sorry to have lured you into my self created "heating abyss" :D

"Air heating" may be the best answer of all (with a bit of backup), however this opens a brand new can of worms now and/or opportunities?

Is it safe to say that many of us run their tanks way too hot ~80+ degrees?

Would an ideal reef aquarium temperature be in the 72-74 degree range?

In my lower level where I will be installing this new tank, the ambient temperature is 72-76 degree range all year long so this may work out well?

I guess the primary concern then becomes the heat fluctuation caused by lights being on/off...if lamps drive this up to say 80 and the ambient temp drags it back down to 74 this may be an issue...kinda sounds like I need to play this one by ear but I love the idea of not having to power heaters unless absolutely necessary.

Thanks for the insight!

- scott -
 

Mogo

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IMO it is entirely possible and logical to run a succesful tank of your size based on ambient or room temperature. IME there are many people that run aquariums around 72-75 degrees. I like to run mine at 80 and some people think it is too high.
As with other aquarium parameters, its not the actual temp that will get ya as much as rapid fluctuation. IMO if you can keep your ambient air temp consistent through the year then you're set. Even a little seasonal fluctuation should be fine. HTH a little.
 

s_stinger

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just wanna give an input here,
i dont think you should worry about the heater switching on/off which regards to electricity efficiency. You should worry about the constant switching on/off when you have anything with motor running (Air con for example) because you need that extra energy initially to start turning the motor to get it to efficient speed. In the case of a heater, it is normal for it turn on/off because in order to maintain specific temp, it is controlled with specific amount of pulse width (define by present temperature and the target temperature you after), which means on and off for certain period of time or simply called the duty cycle (The bigger the difference between the present and the target temp, the higher the duty cycle). Or in aquarium heater, i believe it is simply controlled by turning it fully on when the temp is below target and then off once it's pass the target temp and so on, this would means you have higher fluctuation of temp compared with the earlier method. Either way, there's no moving part in heater (it's just a very big resistor) so you shouldnt worry much about the heater switching on/off.
 

uryy4me

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S_S I am certainly no expert here, but lets say for for example I had a 15 amp circuit I could tie 3 500w heaters to (roughly 12 amps?). If I had a choice of drawing upon those circuits in an incremental capacity vs. an all or nothing, which would you choose if you were leary of blowing a circuit (I know, confusing issues here and if this is needed it shoud be on its own circuit...just neve imagined that when I started a reef tank I would have to re-wire my house :(
 

s_stinger

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sorry, i didnt reliase that you also worry about blowing the cct (didnt read the post properly). i thought you just concern about the electricity bill

but you're right, the first time a heater start, there will be a big spike and this spike will probably kill your fuse (although negligible on your electricity bill) if you have all 3 heaters start at the same time. so i guess the best bet is to upgrade the capacity or just make sure they start in increment
 
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Anonymous

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As a person who grew up in a constantly fuse-blowing house, I can say the rewiring was DEFINITELY WORTH IT!

LOL!! Sorry, now I see why you want the staggered progression and lower wattage...bit by bit this stuff is coming out. ;)
 

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