Muriatic acid

[Anonymous]

Right now I acclimate via the drip method, and have had no problems thus far. But someone has mentioned to me that there is a "better"? method involving the use of muriatic acid which can be used to help acclimate new shipments of fish. Has anyone here had any experience with this method, and how does it work? Can it be used with corals and inverts?
TIA

 

[Anonymous]

It is HCl (hydrochloric acid) that people use to clean swimming pool. I have no clue as to how this can work, but may have something to do with ammonia tolerance under acidic condition for verts. Keep in mind that HCl is a strong acid, and without careful buffering, you can pH shock organism very easily with small amount.

Maybe you should get more detail about this "better" method from the people mentioning it, but if I were you, I would do more thinking before repeating what others told you.

 

[wade1]

This better method will instantly kill your corals... the very low pH will dissolved their skeletons and organic tissues in minutes. So, unless you are into the whole horror show thing, I wouldn't suggest it!

 

[oimate84]

I wouldnt add muriatic acid to acclimate anything...I did a chemistry lab experiment with this acid and its PH is dangerously low to be mixing with anything...

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks guys
I should clarify some things. I just changed jobs. It is the same position (tankroom manager) but for a better salary. This tankroom is part of a large chain of stores up here in Canada, and I am not quite used to the different ways they operate. So I am unfamiliar with this method, although they use it in all their stores.

I asked for more info yesterday. Apparently they use this method only on shipments coming in from overseas. The pH in the bags is 6.5, on average. Dripping them is too slow, so what they do is add the acid to a few prepared (acid-ified) tanks, transfer the livestock, and then drip the tanks with properly buffered saltwater. To me, it seems the same as my old fashioned drip method, only much less time consuming, since they don't have to prepare drip bins, tubing, etc and they dont have to run around emptying bins as they fill. Also, it saves on a lot of saltwater, since dripping 10 boxes of marine stock can consume gallons and gallons...

I will ask them for the exact dosage info for this method, as I would like to try it before judging. Saving time and energy always sounds good to me, but I will really need to see if this works as well as they say it will.
I remain dubious, like you guys.
Has anyone else used this method, or heard of it?
Thanks again

 

[wade1]

The pH in the bags is 6.5, on average. Dripping them is too slow, so what they do is add the acid to a few prepared (acid-ified) tanks, transfer the livestock, and then drip the tanks with properly buffered saltwater. To me, it seems the same as my old fashioned drip method, only much less time consuming, since they don't have to prepare drip bins, tubing, etc and they dont have to run around emptying bins as they fill. Also, it saves on a lot of saltwater, since dripping 10 boxes of marine stock can consume gallons and gallons...

Maybe I understand this incorrectly but it seems a total negation of the entire purpose behind acclimation. The purpose is to bring the current water conditions they are in up to the conditions in your tank. In doing so, you dilute ammonia and increase the repressed pH of the bags after transport.

By moving livestock from a stressful bag situation to a tank cold turkey is worse IMO than just moving them from a stressful situation into a well balanced and correctly maintained tank.

There are 2 real issues with livestock (reasons for acclimation) and those are 1) temperature and 2) salinity/pH. Shifting either of these parameters too quickly results in further stress or death. Putting these animals into an acidic solution does the following: makes the ammonia less toxic, causes homeostsis dysregulation (they rely on pH to maintain blood chemistry), and likely causes pain (depending on how low the pH is).

One other negative aspect is that if you combine the water from all the various bags of a shipment, you are not improving the situation at all. You increase disease transmission, shock those who were in cleaner bags, etc.

These animals need to be given the correct pH, correct temperature in order to maintain themselves. I'd highly suggest you either forget acclimating altogether and just place them into stable tanks (ph 8.0-8.3, salinity 35ppt, temp 76-84F) or stick to acclimating based on a drip or scoop method.

Did I miss something about this process?

Wade

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe
Since we are still actually setting up the store (it's not even open yet, the tankroom is halfway stocked already, saltwater is fully cycled, but the freshwater tanks all vary, and I am fishless cycling the entire goldfish section) I didnt have time yesterday to ask for further info, but I can clarify a few things. They prepare the tanks that the fish are being moved into basically on the spot...in other words, the pH, temp and salinity of the bags are measured, and the tanks are adjusted to match them. So essentially what they are doing is moving the fish directly from the bags into 100 gallon tanks that match as closely as possible the parameters of the bags, but minus the ammonia. Then the tanks are slowly dripped onto the systems until the pH, salinity etc etc are at the proper levels.
Now. The way I usually acclimate new shipments is to open the bags, place all the fish into styrofoam boxes on the floor, and run airline tubing drips from the tanks into the styrofoam boxes, and I add Prime or Amquel (whichever is on hand) to detoxify the ammonia immediately, and also as things progress. This method uses up a lot of my water, and takes a couple hours of surveillance as well. This is what I meant by saving time...If the fish could be placed directly into my tanks, all I would have to do is watch them, I wouldn't have to worry about water overflowing from the styrofoams, etc. Also I would not waste water, since all the OLD bag water would be dumped right after the fish are transferred instead of being mixed with my good water and thus wasted...
Does this make sense? But the only difference between the two methods that I can see are 1)freeing up some of my time and 2)saving a good deal of good saltwater. But since it is a retail operation, those are valid points.
Any other thoughts?
thanks again

 

[Anonymous]

There are many acclimation method with the same advantages you mentioned above. However, it is not clear to me how you save water by dumping livestock into acidified tank, and dilute the acidifed tank with good water. For ad hoc setup (the old method you mentioned above), it is certainly more time efficient, but there is many ways to setup the tank so that you can do the same old method, but without as much hassle.

HCl is not a very safe acid to use. You may want to ask the wacko who came out with the idea about the use of vinegar instead of HCl. If he can't tell you why one is better than the others, you should take his advice with a grain of salt. (Vinegar is too expenisve! :roll

You may want to experiment with the following and let us know if I am as wacky as some of your coworkers...

Do you know why the pH in the oversea lovestock is so low? Yes, it is the CO2 (carbonic acids and other related ions in saltwater) in the bag that make the pH low. Now, how about making the 100 gal tank water to match the temp and salinity of the bag, and adjust the pH with CO2 dispense thru air stone with good circulation? Whent he pH matches, dump the livestock into the tank, and turn the CO2 off. After a few hours, the pH will come back up, and you don't need to drip any water into the acidified tank. This will save you a good deal of good saltwater, and freeing up some of your time, and don't need to worry if the new boy splash some HCl into his eyes and get blinded.

 

[wade1]

A couple of comments...

HCl is not a very safe acid to use. You may want to ask the wacko who came out with the idea about the use of vinegar instead of HCl. If he can't tell you why one is better than the others, you should take his advice with a grain of salt. (Vinegar is too expenisve! )

This is a VERY not smart idea. Vinegar (acetic acid) is not nearly as rough as muriatic (HCl), however, it is an organic acid. When HCl dissovles, you get H+ (just like water) and Cl- (just like salt). When vinegar dissociates you get H+ and an organic fraction. Its harsh on living tissues. It has its uses in the hobby (kalk, etc) as it has a vapor pressure and the vinegar eventually becomes airborn and leaves the system, but using it in a tank with living animals is not a good idea.

Secondly, a pH shift (from 6.5 to 8) isn't going to be nearly as stressful as you might think. Its sorta like you going from a room thats loaded with cigarette smoke (or say a burning house) and walking into fresh air. Going from a stressful situation (low pH, hi ammonia, etc) into an "optimal" situation is not a problem. These animals are adapted to 8-8.3 pH... they are not adapted to a specific temperature or in rare cases a salinity. Those are the two variables which matter the most and the two that should be brought back to normal more slowly. pH should not be a concern and as far as I can figure, putting fish in a low pH environment will just continue their stress. I'd stick to putting them into a tank thats matched salinity and temp to their bags and acclimate from there to match the store tanks.

Wade

 

[Anonymous]

I agree that vinegar is not a good idea, since a lot more is need because it does not dissociate as well as HCl to have the same effect on the pH. However, I don't know if the Ac- ion is as bad as Cl- on living tissue, but I would hate to calculate the amount of vinegar that will needed to drop the pH down to 6.5. My original intention is to have the idea presented to the HCl method inventor, and see if they can come up with any good reason not to use one acid over the other.

I also agree with the need to get the livestock back to good water condition as soon as possible. Once, someone ask what to do if a fish jump out of the tank. Does it need to be acclimated by holding it only 1/10 in the water, and lowered gradually over next few hour until the whole fish is submerged. Well, I am not going to elaborate on it, but just want to add a caveat. The low pH of the bag water help the livestock (particular fish) deal with high ammonia condition during shipment. If the pH is raise too suddenly, even in a new water that is relatively low in ammonia, you need to make sure the fish is physiologically able to deal with it. I am not a fish person, so I will just keep quiet before i dig a bigger hole....

 

[wade1]

I don't know if the Ac- ion is as bad as Cl- on living tissue

A very large proportion of the negative ions in seawater are Cl- ions. Saltwater fish have specific cells (chloride cells) that use the Cl ions to maintain homeostasis. So, in other words, they have very little effect on the fish. The real balance with HCl is the amount of acid (protons) released. Whereas with vinegar, the acetate ion may cause other issues.

Wade