Does it make sence to you??

[miktrav2]

Do any of you eat SeaFood? Do you eat produce that's not organically grown? If you answered yes to any of the above I could say the same about you. I'm all for buying captive raised but at a reasonable price when compared to wild caught. Yes $18 isn't a lot of money but it's $8 more than the same fish wild caught. Double the price. Why so much for a fish that there are many aquarists raising on their own without the need for expensive specialized equipment or benefitting from economies of scale? I believe the ORA farmers are preying on our our desire to conserve the reefs.

Does anyone know if any these are publicly traded companies? If you do I'd like a name. I wouldn't mind looking at their annual reports to see how their balance sheet looks. Maybe if I can justify to myself that they are not making a killing spending those few extra bucks won't go down so hard for me.

Louey:

Do you really think they'll ever lower their prices? They are in business to make money not out of love for the hobby. Someone sat down and calculated how much they could charge for these fish and still turn a, I'm guessing here, sizeable profit. And that's fine. This is a capitalist country and that's the way it should be. They're just not going to get my money. If you go into the store and see a jar of Mrs. Wages Pickling lime for $1.25 and the same size jar of Kent's Marine Kalkwasser Mix for $10 which would you buy? Not paying the extra $8.75 isn't depleting the reefs you say? True but I think the aquarium hobby is the least of the worries faced by our oceans and we should also encourage responsible collecting as is already being championed in many of the collecting areas.

I just want to say that captive breeding is a good idea but there has to be a way it can be accomplished so that we all benefit. The hobby is expensive enough as it is.

Mike

 

[Anonymous]

Do any of you eat SeaFood? Do you eat produce that's not organically grown? If you answered yes to any of the above I could say the same about you. I'm all for buying captive raised but at a reasonable price when compared to wild caught. Yes $18 isn't a lot of money but it's $8 more than the same fish wild caught. Double the price. Why so much for a fish that there are many aquarists raising on their own without the need for expensive specialized equipment or benefitting from economies of scale? I believe the ORA farmers are preying on our our desire to conserve the reefs.

Does anyone know if any these are publicly traded companies? If you do I'd like a name. I wouldn't mind looking at their annual reports to see how their balance sheet looks. Maybe if I can justify to myself that they are not making a killing spending those few extra bucks won't go down so hard for me.

I just want to say that captive breeding is a good idea but there has to be a way it can be accomplished so that we all benefit. The hobby is expensive enough as it is.

Mike

are you under the impression that ornamental fishfarmers are raking it in?

 

[ChrisRD]

Do any of you eat SeaFood? Do you eat produce that's not organically grown?

Why is it OK to ignore a problem because another exists?

 

[miktrav2]

LOL no they probably aren't but there has to be a way for them to turn a profit and still let us enjoy the beauty of the hobby. I don't think that the price difference should be so great. They both have expenses just different kinds. It's just hard for me to accept that captive bred deserves that much of a premium over wild caught. I've seen hobbyist here raising pajama cardinals doing nothing more that they would ordinarily do for their tanks.

That being said, I'm also just a cheap @#$*& so pay me no mind.

Mike

 

[ChrisRD]

FWIW, I have a pair of false percs. I bought captive raised - they were $15 each. If any species is available captive raised, I will buy that before I buy a wild-caught animal. If I had to get the animal wild-caught I'd pay a price premium to know that it was caught in a responsible manner.

IMO it's well worth paying a small price premium to insure that this hobby is around for generations to come and to preserve our natural environment. I feel buying captive raised animals whenever possible and thereby supporting captive breeding will ultimately result in lower prices and a greater diversity of species available as captive raised in the future.

For those who don't already know, Inland Aquatics has lists of some captive bred/raised species they handle.

 

[miktrav2]

ChrisRD:


I agree. Now what are you doing about the runoff and the dead oceanic mammals?


I agree that paying a small premium is OK for captive raised or responsibly collected is OK. But if you think these guys are going to lower their prices when more people buy you're mistaken. Just ask the people out in california how much they pay for their electricity. Just ask the Enron execs why they had to gouge every penny out of the consumers out there by inflating rates and fabricating shortages.

ORA farmers are running a business and their primary motivation is to make as much money as possible. Once they've got you hooked they're going to reel you in like those drowned dolphins and inflate the price even more before tossing you overboard.


Mike

 

[ChrisRD]

I agree. Now what are you doing about the runoff and the dead oceanic mammals?

I think you're missing the point. Because there are other environmental issues it's OK to collect fish with cyanide and destroy our natural reefs?

BTW, I buy organic produce and farm-raised catfish... :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

i think what needs to be brought to light here is the sense of responsibility we should have for the impacts made by this hobby.
bringing other issues into this conversation (such as those animals that we don't keep or effectively endanger through this hobby) does nothing but provide rationalization for inaction and complacency.

if the going price for a clown was 15.00 dollars and the 12.00 dollar ones were not available, would you forgo owning one?

 

[miktrav2]

I would like to say I find the position of everyone here who supports captive raised purchasing admirable. I just don't think it's always feasible for someone on a budget. When this situation arises I would like to point out that the alternative exists for buy from a responsible retailer who supplies responsibly collected fish.

In the future I promise to buy my percs or any fish I purchase available captive raised. (I'm saying this hoping that I don't lose any of the 2 I have as I've grown attached).

Mike

PS

Podman:

It's not a part of the hobby but it's the same problem. You seem to miss that point. It all goes hand in hand. I bought a Honda Civic because it gives me great gas mileage, and durability at a reasonable price compared to the other offerings out there. When I bought this car I considered how the fuel efficiency and emissions would affect our environment. I also considered purchasing the Insight, the gas/battery hybrid, but decided there wasn't enough of a payoff. The tuna I purchase is labeled dolphin safe. Most of the produce I buy is also organically grown from the farmers market and has the additional incentive of helping to support small farms. To just say that I'm providing rationalizing is missing the whole point of this issue. Everything depends on everything else. The runoff chokes the reefs and the reefs die. How will that affect the hobby? Not trying to be an a**h*** here just trying to show that it's all connected and once we realize that maybe things'll change.

By the way a 3 dollar difference in price is what I would call an acceptable cost premium.

 

[ChrisRD]

ORA farmers are running a business and their primary motivation is to make as much money as possible. Once they've got you hooked they're going to reel you in like those drowned dolphins and inflate the price even more before tossing you overboard.

With all due respect Mike, this sounds a bit far-fetched. How profitable can breeding marine fish possibly be? From what I've read, I think ORA is one of the few places that has tried that's actually been able to make it work financially.

And FWIW, I don't think comparing costs the average hobbyist puts into breeding a pair of fish in their home aquarium vs. what it would cost to run a commercial operation is very realistic.

 

[ChrisRD]

I do agree that buying a responsibly collected fish is the next best alternative.

 

[miktrav2]

I would like to say I find the position of everyone here who supports captive raised purchasing admirable. I just don't think it's always feasible for someone on a budget. When this situation arises I would like to point out that the alternative exists for buy from a responsible retailer who supplies responsibly collected fish.

In the future I promise to buy my percs or any fish I purchase available captive raised. (I'm saying this hoping that I don't lose any of the 2 I have as I've grown attached).

Mike

 

[Anonymous]

I would like to say I find the position of everyone here who supports captive raised purchasing admirable. I just don't think it's always feasible for someone on a budget. When this situation arises I would like to point out that the alternative exists for buy from a responsible retailer who supplies responsibly collected fish.

In the future I promise to buy my percs or any fish I purchase available captive raised. (I'm saying this hoping that I don't lose any of the 2 I have as I've grown attached).

Mike

that is great

i think if you were to weigh the consequences you would agree that buying only available tank raised specimens is the best way to go financially as well.

 

[ChrisRD]

FWIW, I also prefer buying captive propagated coral frags to wild collected colonies.

 

[Anonymous]

miktrav,
you wrote:

It's fine to say buy tank raised but how can you say how can you afford a tank? The tank is the cheapest piece of equipment I have running right now next to my pumps.

I meant the cost of everything, not just the tank itself. My 30 gallon ran me around 2000 for all the equipment, livestock, etc. My pair of TR maroon clowns were 60. I'm terrible at arithmetic, but that's like 3% of the total price?

I wanted to get into the hobby as cheaply as possible.

Same here, and I don't blame you. It's terribly expensive when you add it all up, but it's cheaper in the long run to buy the best equipment you can afford in the beginning. I have a bunch of "cheap" equipment lying around collecting dust.

I guess you guys don't buy tuna because it's killing off dolphins or only buy organically grown produce because the phospates from the fertilizer that's used is running off into the oceans and choking our reefs with algae? Do you guys protest the navy for using sonar that deafens the whales and causes them to beach?

Nope. I don't eat tuna. I don't really buy produce either. I wouldn't even know where to go to protest the navy, but I'm aware of the problems sonar poses. I guess you ride a bike everywhere and don't drive a polluting (even hybrids pollute) car? I do, but it's irrelevant to what we're talking about here.

Do you really think that that one or two species is going to do much to prevent the depletion of wild stock?

C'mon now. Do you really think one or two models of hybrid car is going to prevent pollution? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for hybrid cars. Yes, I do believe the SEVERAL species (6 or 7 clowns ?, 5 dottybacks, several gobies, maculosus angels, more on the way like pygmy angels) commercially available do have an impact, especially because clowns are one of the most (if not THE most) popular marine fish sold.

To say you should only buy captive raised and shouldn't be in the hobby because you can't afford it is crap.

I never said anyone should or should not be in the hobby for this reason.

Does it really cost less to 1) pay someone living in Fiji to collect a fish or coral, 2) store that fish or coral in a holding facility, 3) arrange for shipment and storage to the west coast, 3) ship from West Coast to Local Fish store than it does to raise captive? Not sure but something stinks here.

I don't know about the costs of transporting a fish from Fiji,etc. I have, however, visited several commercial sturgeon aquaculture farms, and talked with the owners at length as part of my education in marine biology. What I can tell you is this: Female sturgeon, which sell for THOUSANDS of dollars in the marketplace (caviar), are not making the owners of farms rich. These guys wear jeans and live in modest sized houses. Food accounts for about half the cost of raising a fish to maturity, whether it's channel catfish or white sturgeon or trout. This is for freshwater species, whose larvae can be raised on relatively inexpensive dry pellet feed as a first food. Now compare this to a clownfish whose first food has to be cultured and fed its own live food. You can imagine the price difference is quite significant. When I asked the farm owners about marine fish farming, what do they say? It's not economically as lucrative, and it's very difficult to breed the fish and raise the young. The argument that places like ORA are making a killing, is IMO, downright laughable, and WHAT DOES IT MATTER ANYWAY? If Honda makes a killing off of selling and maintaining hybrids (which I doubt they do) does this make hybrids somehow less appealing? Isn't the point that it makes you feel as if you are helping in your own small way?

Whew, what an essay.... :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

BTW, I never write that much. It's good evidence that I really enjoy the discussion

 

[danmhippo]

It's either we wait until the fish winds up on the endangered list, and drive up the price sharply, OR, we support these captive bred research. Maybe one would think that there are plenty of these fish still in the sea, but at the speed the hobbyist, LFS, wholeseller, and collector are killing them, you can bet they will eventually end up on that list. It's simply a question of time.

 

[GSchiemer]

I'd like to add my two cents to this discussion.

I'm very familiar with ORA. I know the managers personally; I've visited there; I've written two articles about the operation. ORA is a division of HARBOR BRANCH Oceanographic Institution in Ft. Pierce, Florida. This is a non-profit organization that does biomedical research on deep-sea creatures, mammal rescues, and marine research and education. They survive primarily on donations. The Johnson & Johnson family was the largest donor in past years. No one is getting rich from ORA.

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread, but captive fish are worth a premium for more than environmental reasons. They are sturdier fish than wild collected specimens. They come from strictly quarantined facilities and are disease-free when they reach pet stores. They eat prepared foods immediately. They are generally less aggressive than their wild-caught counterparts. They are all young fish.

As for prices, in many cases wild-caught A. percula clowns are MORE expensive that ORA fish, especially those marketed as Australian and Biac clowns. Also, wild-caught perculas often break down and die in captivity. If you have to replace a fish two and three times, are you really saving money? If a fish dies within one year because it was an old fish when you purchased it, are you saving money? Some food for thought.

Greg

 

[DustinDorton]

ORA can't take all the blame for captive bred fish not fitting into someones budget. You have to remember that the fish store has their own markup. I have seen our ocellaris retail anywhere from $12 up into the $40 range.
As Greg said, many of the species we sell are actually less expensive than wild caught animals. Several species of clowns, bicinctus, nigripes and akyndinos for example, sell for far far less than wild caught animals.
Our dottybacks are either right in line, or cheaper than wild caught animals. Some speculate that the availability of captive raised dottybacks has lowered the cost of wild animals. In the time I have been in this hobby I have seen the prices of wild fridmani, splendens and springeri drop to farm raised prices.

Some of the accusations here are pretty outrageous. Comparing people who choose to purchase farm raised fish to dead dolphins is just not right. ORA is not out to gouge anyone. It costs a lot of money to raise fish.

The money is not put into some rich guys wallet. It goes towards expanding our facilities, working on new species, providing customers with a better product, and helping to fund HBOI.

Greg, on a side note. ORA is a for profit subsidiary of Harbor Branch Institution.

 

[miktrav2]

Once again I apologize if I offended anyone. I never compared purchasing farm raised fish to dead dolphins I just said that if they were going to come at this from a conservation point of view then they should look at the whole picture and make other adjustments in their lives that would include helping other species from our oceans that are under just as much pressure. The fact that this pressure is not being generated by the hobby is irrelevent.

I admit that my comparing ORA farmers to Kenneth Laye was a bit over the top but I was trying to make a point. I went overboard.

Are you trying to tell me there's no profit motive anywhere in this? I don't find anything wrong with making a profit what I have a problem with is being charged double for what would be essentially the same product. If there's no profit motive there then I've truly embarrassed and must apologize once again.

Having said all this, despite my reservations about overpaying for captive raised animals I have decided that the benefits of purchasing captive raised far outweighs any cost savings that I may encounter and I plan to purchase farmed fish when I do purchase in the future.



Mike