Removing a DSB safely

[John_Brandt]

One or two spots should not be a problem. One or two spots in a 125 will not release enough gas to wipe out a tank.

This idea is thrown around in the hobby quite a bit. Anyone have any links that have any data on the release of posion gas in an aquarium?

You are speaking of hydrogen sulfide (H2S)? The "rotten egg" gas?

I watched all the fish die in a 55 gallon reef that had a bunch of it trapped beneath a rock I moved. Big marble-sized sized bubbles came up. It nearly knocked me flat. Within a few minutes about 6 fish were dead, all of them.

I know Julian told me about losing a fish (a puffer?) in a tank he had right after a H2S bubble-up.

It's a very toxic gas and can really mess up living things including people. Over 200 people died last week in China from a H2S eruption.

"It was the sulfurated hydrogen that made this accident so fatal."

Children in a hospital had their eyes sealed shut by the gas.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/east/12/26/china.gas

It is well-known to inhibit nitrification, even in minute quantities. I don't know of any online references on its toxicity in aquariums. But it can be bad. My suggestion is that if anyone smells it while working in the aquarium they should stop whatever they think they did to release it. Aerate vigorously to drive it off (though it is highly soluble) and ventilate the area for your own safety.

 

[DonJasper]

So this process happens in the 'real' ocean right? So are there large pockets of this nasty stuff under boulders waiting to bubble up if/when the boulders are moved?

 

[Anonymous]

CO2 in very deep lakes, too. Think East African rift lakes and that region.

 

[tazdevil]

So this process happens in the 'real' ocean right? So are there large pockets of this nasty stuff under boulders waiting to bubble up if/when the boulders are moved?

Ocean's a big unknown on this. There are just too many processes going on that we don't know about to make that assumption.

John, could that release of gas in China be related to volcanic activity and earthquakes? China has there fair share of earthquakes, could that release a bubble of gas that caused these deaths?

 

[Anonymous]

Taz,

It was a gas well the blew.

I watched all the fish die in a 55 gallon reef that had a bunch of it trapped beneath a rock I moved. Big marble-sized sized bubbles came up. It nearly knocked me flat. Within a few minutes about 6 fish were dead, all of them.

Ech.
How long was the tank up and how deep was the sand.

I know Julian told me about losing a fish (a puffer?) in a tank he had right after a H2S bubble-up.

Do you remeber what caused the bubble up?

It is well-known to inhibit nitrification, even in minute quantities. I don't know of any online references on its toxicity in aquariums. But it can be bad. My suggestion is that if anyone smells it while working in the aquarium they should stop whatever they think they did to release it. Aerate vigorously to drive it off (though it is highly soluble) and ventilate the area for your own safety.

Good suggestions.
I am interesed in data on how the gas is generated. Galleon, any ideas?

 

[John_Brandt]

So this process happens in the 'real' ocean right? So are there large pockets of this nasty stuff under boulders waiting to bubble up if/when the boulders are moved?

Ocean's a big unknown on this. There are just too many processes going on that we don't know about to make that assumption.

John, could that release of gas in China be related to volcanic activity and earthquakes? China has there fair share of earthquakes, could that release a bubble of gas that caused these deaths?

H2S is formed in some oceanic sediments, but I doubt that much occurs in coral reef areas.

OSHA site on H2S: http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/oilandgas/general_safety/h2s_monitoring.html#Sudden Release of H2S

 

[John_Brandt]

Taz,

It was a gas well the blew.

I watched all the fish die in a 55 gallon reef that had a bunch of it trapped beneath a rock I moved. Big marble-sized sized bubbles came up. It nearly knocked me flat. Within a few minutes about 6 fish were dead, all of them.

Ech.
How long was the tank up and how deep was the sand.

I know Julian told me about losing a fish (a puffer?) in a tank he had right after a H2S bubble-up.

Do you remeber what caused the bubble up?

It is well-known to inhibit nitrification, even in minute quantities. I don't know of any online references on its toxicity in aquariums. But it can be bad. My suggestion is that if anyone smells it while working in the aquarium they should stop whatever they think they did to release it. Aerate vigorously to drive it off (though it is highly soluble) and ventilate the area for your own safety.

Good suggestions.
I am interesed in data on how the gas is generated. Galleon, any ideas?

Boo hoo Richard, I can tell you about hydrogen sulfide....

The 55 I had the disaster in was set up for at least 3 years (but that doesn't mean it took that long to produce H2S). There was fine coral sand but not a true DSB. It was about 2" deep, but was mounded up higher in some areas. I generally vacuum the detritus from the sand but can't get to areas beneath and behind the reef. I was moving some rocks and lifted a big one that was lying on the sand. Bloop bloop bloop yuck!

I can't remember the specifics of Julian's story. I just remember a dead puffer and hydrogen sulfide as the cause.

H2S is created by bacterial action in anoxic situations. Here bacteria use sulfate anions as a source of oxygen. Sulfate SO4(common in seawater) is reduced to sulfide as bacteria "take" the oxygen molecule. This usually occurs after bacteria have already taken the oxygen from dissolved oxygen O2 and from nitrate NO3 and nitrite NO2.

 

[Anonymous]

8O 8O 8O

I find your story very troubling.

Chris

 

[Anonymous]

BB is only way I'm going to do it from now on. I have tried both ways and the differences is like night and day.
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[Anonymous]

jds,

Which style of DSB did you go with?
I think we really need to differentiate between sandbed methodologies.

John, any idea how fast the sulfide can build up? Without a big rock to collect it, does it usually escape form the sand in 'safe' amounts?

 

[Anonymous]

jds,

Which style of DSB did you go with?
I think we really need to differentiate between sandbed methodologies.

I had 5 inch sand bed in my 256 with all the supporting cast needed to make it work properly. And of course do not disturb the bed.

Granted the tank was not set up for an extremely a long period of time .but long enough for me to realized I didn't like what was going on. The tank was full of hair algae and cino. It just looked terrible so I tore it down and separated everything to two tanks. the fish and some live rock went into a 120 and the rest of the live rock and coral went in a 45.

Now granted I can't make a true comparison simply because I don't have the intense lighting and the conditions are not exactly the same. But there is a noticeable difference in just the appearance. I have no hair algae or cino in either tank whatsoever.

The tank with the soft coral is so simple now to take care of its ridiculous. I'm applying some old school preaching to this tank. Lots of live rock and in my view one of the most important words advice (no fish). This tank has no mechanical filtration whatsoever no protein skimmer. I put nothing in the tank whatsoever no food no additives. The only additives that go in are when I do a water change. and this makes for a very stable environment that doesn't need all sorts of contraption to counteract some of the byproducts of food and chemicals.
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[Anonymous]

I had 5 inch sand bed in my 256 with all the supporting cast needed to make it work properly. And of course do not disturb the bed.

A 'static' or 'dr' style sand bed. Anyone have any ideas on termonology? Perhaps someone already has a way to differentiate between the different sand beds.

Granted the tank was not set up for an extremely a long period of time .but long enough for me to realized I didn't like what was going on. The tank was full of hair algae and cino.

How long was it up?
On of the issues going on now is that people blame hair and other blooms on the sand bed when these problems appear in every kind of system, but now, the sand is the scape goat.

 

[Anonymous]

I had 5 inch sand bed in my 256 with all the supporting cast needed to make it work properly. And of course do not disturb the bed.

A 'static' or 'dr' style sand bed. Anyone have any ideas on termonology? Perhaps someone already has a way to differentiate between the different sand beds.

I feel kind of stupid! I assumed a DSB was just that. I didn't realize there was different styles.

The tank was up for a year and a half. And I'm probably just as guilty as anybody else who blamed the sand bed. But I still can help wondering why I have no hair algae or cino now that the DSB is gone. I still tend to believe that the DSB had something to do with it.

I'm going to find out very shortly because everything is going back into the big tank except the sand. So I will see firsthand what happens.
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[shr00m]

seems to me... it would be pretty easy to remove a dsb by just siphoning it out of the tank bits at a time, during a water change.... i do 20 gallon changes about once a month.... i would just siphon out a lot of sand with the water... i have sugar sand though, as of now i like the old DSB... if anything i might just convert it to a SSB shallow sand bed. i really like sand in teh tank though, adds to the overall effect i think.

 

[Anonymous]

I feel kind of stupid! I assumed a DSB was just that. I didn't realize there was different styles.

Don't fell stupid! I don't think many people are aware that there are different ideas about sand beds.

The tank was up for a year and a half. And I'm probably just as guilty as anybody else who blamed the sand bed. But I still can help wondering why I have no hair algae or cino now that the DSB is gone. I still tend to believe that the DSB had something to do with it.

Maybe. Did you feed a lot and was there a skimmer on the system? What kind of water were you using?

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe. Did you feed a lot and was there a skimmer on the system? What kind of water were you using?

I'm guilty I tend to overfeed I can't help it. I am just the generis type of person. :wink:

in the beginning I used a straight tap water. Six months into it I talked myself in to getting a RODI unit.
As for a protein skimmer I started out with a crappy one. Deadline
the was a little better than crappy. To the one I'm using now which I like a lot.

Another problem with my DSB I didn't have enough of the supporting cast to make it work properly. I could never get my nitrates under 20.
That is that problem when you have messy fish and a person that is a little too generis around feeding time.

I think that's where people tend to go wrong with a DSB they have their limitations. And they really shouldn't be in a tank with a lot of fish. that is just my opinion.
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[Anonymous]

The tap water and the overfeeding and the underskimming could certianly have been the source of your hair problem. Mmmm, phosphates.

Another problem with my DSB I didn't have enough of the supporting cast to make it work properly. I could never get my nitrates under 20.
That is that problem when you have messy fish and a person that is a little too generis around feeding time.

I am not convinced that you could ever have enough supporting cast to make it work properly if properly means it would export all the nutrients in the system.

I think that's where people tend to go wrong with a DSB they have their limitations. And they really shouldn't be in a tank with a lot of fish. that is just my opinion.

Its not the amount of fish or the amount of food, its the amount of stuff that gets into the bed. It seems if you have good flow, a big skimmer, and 'stir' at least the top of the sand bed, you will stop it from filling up too fast.
That said, they do have their limitations, specially if it is thought they will take care of everything as a filter.

 

[LA-Lawman]

I have got a 3-5" sand bed. but i employ star fish and cucumbers. I skim wet and replace Top-Off with DI water. My tank has been up 2yrs and no probs.

But thinking this way.... every living thing has a phosphate content. Algae, fish, inverts, crabs and such. if you don't import. and only export.. shouldn't the PO4 be very managable...?

 

[John_Brandt]

jds,
John, any idea how fast the sulfide can build up? Without a big rock to collect it, does it usually escape form the sand in 'safe' amounts?

I don't really know Richard.

AFAIK, if you have anaerobic conditions and NO3 & NO2 have been reduced already, then the bacteria will begin reducing sulfate to sulfide. It seems to occur mostly under rocks or in deep dense detritus-rich sediment. Whenever I walk through stagnant mangrove shallows I can smell it in the mud. But I don't think there's much produced on reefs.

Maybe the only time it's dangerous is if lots of it bubbles up through the water all at once.

If you stir up bubbles while working in a sand bed, stop to smell whether those bubbles are H2S.

 

[Anonymous]

Last night I began the process of removing some of my DSB. The DSB is between 5 and 7.5 inches in height. As I was removing some of the sand, a big bubble came up out of the sand that...you guessed it...smelled like rotton eggs. (And let me tell ya...after reading this thread...I was close to freakin'!) The sand I took out also smelled a bit like rotten eggs, but not as strong.

I kept a close eye on all of the fish, and this morning everyone looks good. To be honest, I have no idea what I would have done if the fish went south! Probably cried alot!

I still have a long way to go to get the DSB down to 2-3"...and I'm dreading any future sand-removing event.

Just thought I'd share my experience!