AMDA Board of Directors speak out.

[Money Pit]

Mitch,

I think that is great idea for AMDA members to band together to form a larger purchasing power, lets face it the more money you spend the more likely you are to get the attention of those you purchase from. That being said I find AMDA's moral superiority complex and the "parasite" rhetoric off the deep end. AMDA would be better served trying to put out a positive message rather then posting cry baby letters and having people like Cortez speaking for them.

 

[clarionreef]

Money,
It all about the money w/ you isn't it?
AMDA is not a buying club. You would think like that wouldn't you?
Steve

 

[Money Pit]

Steve you mentioned earlier that it was about the money, the letter suggests it's about the money.

 

[Anonymous]

Does the AMDA BOD also suggest and practice not buying anything online that can be bought at a brick and mortar store? I hope so, because it would seem odd to only be against ecommerce when it hurts your business, and use ecommerce when it saves you money.

I think the letter is mistaken about the role of LFS in the trade. Perhaps AMDA member shops are stellar, but from what I can see, there is massive misinformation coming out of LFS. So many of them don't want to start you off right, they want to start you off with whatever it is they happen to want to sell.

I am also not sure if I buy the concept that etailers are parasites. They have found a market and are exploiting it, and I don't see how we can fault them for that. If ADMA members don't want to buy from sources that sell to etailers, that is their decision. I think it will be hard to find such sources.

There is a great store in my area that sells very few dry goods and they are fine with that. Their business comes from selling live stock. They know that most people want to see their animals before they buy them, and the cost of shipping makes etailing animals a little expensive - unless you buy a bunch of stuff. They also know that they cant compete with etailers on price of drygoods, so they don't even try. Perhaps this is the future of the LFS.

 

[Juck]

>>Juck if you own a business I have a question.
>>Do you think your wholesalers should also etail?
>>Especially at low ball prices?

Well,, I'm an Antique dealer so I really don't have that problem,, on the other hand,, folk in my line of business have had to adapt to the Internet environment under similar pressure. A few years ago all I heard was wailing and gnashing of teeth from other Art dealers: "Oh Ebay and the Internet is killing us,, whine,, gripe,,, there will be no more Bricks and Mortar Antique shops or shows in a few years"

Well,,, it was all a lot of fuss about nothing,,, most dealers took the leap and started buying and selling on Ebay and building their own websites,, many with great success. Sure, a few went tits-up,, but probably no more than any other year,, just this time they had something else to blame it on rather than their own ineptitude or sheer bad luck.

I think a lot of LFS' have adapted rather well,,, the two I frequent regularly certainly have,, they both sell dry goods, LR & inverts on the web or Ebay and heck,, there always seems to be people in there when I drop in. Maybe they're the exception, I don't know.

I can look at the letter a little differently if you say it wasn't meant for public consumption,,, but it still sounds a bit like what I was hearing from my own colleagues a few years back.

 

[dizzy]

Does the AMDA BOD also suggest and practice not buying anything online that can be bought at a brick and mortar store? I hope so, because it would seem odd to only be against ecommerce when it hurts your business, and use ecommerce when it saves you money.

Righty,
I don't buy stuff online that I can find in our local community. I try and support the local businesses whenever possible. I like the convience of shopping in my local area and I don't want to see the stores close for a lack of support. It's the businesses in a community that make it a fun place to live and shop. I don't think any of us care if you etail or not. We just happened to feel that AMDA should be for retailers who educate the public face to face. We are the ones in the trenches meeting the public and getting them interested in starting a marine aquarium. We allow shool field trips to come to our stores and we try and inspire young minds to have an interest in, and a love for the ocean and its wonderful inhabitants. The hobby starts with us and our efforts. Etailers try to lure away the business we create with discount prices. We know all many of you online shoppers really care about is cheap prices. But hey if the voters in Inglewood,CA can vote to keep Wally World out, then the responsible marines dealers of America can come together to help level the playing field as well.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

Perhaps I was too vague in my post. I rarely shop online. The prices after shipping aren't that great, unless you are buying lots of stuff. The only time I buy dry goods online is if the LFS in the area don't have it - which is actually quite often (weird in an area with tons of LFS). Show me a LFS near me that stocks 100 gpd RO membranes, 250 watt 20K DE bulbs and sea swirls and I will buy them there. Otherwise I try to buy everything at the LFS for the same reasons you state. So before you go and call me an online shopper that only cares about money get the info straight please. :mrgreen:

I am also unsure you got my point. If AMDA members buy stuff online (any stuff, not just reef/fish stuff), but ask that others don't, they are being hypocrites. I hope the computers in the AMDA offices were bought at a local computer store, and not at Dell online.

The AMDA is your club, and you can do whatever you want with it, including not including whomever you want. The letter did more that state that however. It played up the idea that etailers are essentially evil, when the truth is that most LFS simply don't stock many of the 'advanced' products that reefers need.

Etailing is changing the way retail is done. I think it would be better for the AMDA to change with it, rather to try to stop it.

 

[clarionreef]

But,
If E-tailing could help save the source of the hobby...ie what is in the ocean, then it could be useful. If it excaberrates the pressure and the damage, then all its cyber skill will not save the fish supply.
E-tail is but different marketing with less power to do good and more power to do harm to the reefs.
It can accelerate demand for wild things that cannot be mass produced!
Of course the joy of aquisition has no limit, nor does the greed of man.
The only thing that has a limit in this equation is the marinelife that anchors it all!
We will witness a compounded tragedy of the commons as every market level fights to keep up with a depleting supply for its own needs.
The rising price often reflected scarcity in a blue tang or a blueface angel...and slowed down the looting of it...now that they are back to 90's cheapness online, the pressure can build again.
There may not even be enough for an industry with built-in limiting factors. The rise of e-tailing as a cultural reality may collide with the ecological reality in the sea and biological reality of a faltering fish supply that it has no clue of and no compassion for.
This is my worry.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

exacerbates

so what if etailers were b&m's exacerbating the raping of the reefs?

are all amda member stores completely innocent of just selling stuff to make a buck?

i think your premise may need a little bit of tweaking, steve

 

[Anonymous]

addendum- i don't think that 'declaring war' on etailers is the solution at all, nor do i think it's implementable, from a practical standpoint

 

[clarionreef]

Vitz!
As I have explained many times; the whole system delivers cyanide fish and the seeds of our unsustainable doom to every door.

The holier then thou...greener then thou dogma is not ours.
No knee jerk reaction or defense is required.

The sinners amongst us...are us.
Like alcoholics annonymous we need to take steps to reform ourselves....but now here comes another stampede of even more clue-less sinners to join us!

AMDA needs to 'heal thyself' I believe of course.
So does everyone else because we all seem to have little trouble supporting with our very purchases a product that would be illegal in every country...especially ours.

The moral blinders one must wear to be an aquarist is very distasteful to me and I'm sick of accepting that its 'just how the real world works". There has been reform that has shown the way...The effort required to win over the dozens who now support net training and defensible practices has been difficult...and costly.
This growing 'greed-stampede' to lowball whats left on the reefs is a huge step backwards.
Here to stay? Wow...so is cancer. But you don't have to embrace it.
Tank raised fish still produce but a fraction of a percent and net trainings by business like NGOs have hardly converted the trade to sane methods. We are NOT READY TO MASS MARKET CLEAN CAUGHT FISH.

The only thing that is ready is the LIMITLESS ambition of those that have absolutely no idea where the masses of cyber peddled livestock will come from.
THE PRESSURE TO SCRAPE REEFS CLEAN BEYOND RECRUITMENT CAPACITY will not doubt increase considerably.

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

understood, steve

but is not using the net to your own advantage the way to go?

why not use the net as the vehicle to provide net caught when you have it?

i don't think anyone is gonna be able to make a dent in the capitalistic drive that pushes people to take advantage of the net for commerce

is it right that they do?

i think it isn't, from a conservation perspective ONLY, not from a pure business perspective

anyone who thinks that b&m is the sole way to remain is deluding themselves, imo

the net has changed the way EVERYONE does, or percieves, business, it's just a fact of 20th century technology

those who truly want to compete w/etail, need to get into etail, is all i'm sayin

doin it w/a superior product, that's ethically obtained, is a very good thing, but short of gov't regulation, i don't think anyone, amda included, is going to be able to change, or even slow it (the scraping of the proverbial barrel)down

just my $0.02

 

[clarionreef]

yes, yes...
and all we are is dust in the wind...
and nothing really matters ultimately anyway..etc. etc..?
The siege to reefs will continue..and increase...but as it does it would be cowardly to lie down for it.
The MAC country co-ordinator explained once, 'If you can't beat em, join em." Translation...'If ya can't save reefs, kill em."Or at least get paid watching it happen...
So...he turned...and draws a paycheck for sandbagging now.
[ which is why there are so few certified fish by the way]
Temptation to sell out as nearly all people do...especially aquarium people is all around. There need be no reminders of it.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

yes, yes...
and all we are is dust in the wind...
and nothing really matters ultimately anyway..etc. etc..?
The siege to reefs will continue..and increase...but as it does it would be cowardly to lie down for it.
The MAC country co-ordinator explained once, 'If you can't beat em, join em." Translation...'If ya can't save reefs, kill em."Or at least get paid watching it happen...
So...he turned...and draws a paycheck for sandbagging now.
[ which is why there are so few certified fish by the way]
Temptation to sell out as nearly all people do...especially aquarium people is all around. There need be no reminders of it.
Steve

i'm praying that isn't your interpretation of my post preceeding yours

i think trying and attempting is commendable, and the only way to go, whether success is obtained or not,- i'd rather be able to say i've tried to help, and wasn't good enough to overcome the obstacles, than to sit idly by because i think it may happen anyway.

i hope that much is evident to you

my question is what will the amda stores banding together to boycott etailers accomplish? if you honestly think that it will hurt the 'insistent scrapers', then go for it.

i'd like to hear (pm, if need be) how you think a boycott will progress and develop, and how you think it will impact the 'scraper' etail suppliers enough to force them out of business

 

[nanocat]

Support my LFS? When they charge $49.99 for the same titanium heater I get from BigAl's for $16.99? Naw, I don't think so.

Get "advice" from the LFS? Naw I don't think so. I'm usually the one who has to point out that their clowns have parasites and how to treat them. Their response? "We'd have to take them out of the tank to do that" :lol:

I use my LFS to buy the tank and the sand and the LR. I use them to purchase livestock. I use them to buy my Catalina water. They like the internet just fine when I use it to tell fellow club members what cool fish or corals I saw at their store.

They probably don't like it so much when I use it to tell which LFS had dead and half eaten fish in their tanks. Tough.

The letter sounded pathetic to me. Kinda made me want to offer some cheese with their whine.

 

[Anonymous]

They probably don't like it so much when I use it to tell which LFS had dead and half eaten fish in their tanks. Tough.

You can't say that about etailers, your guessing they even have a system to hold said livestock.[/quote]

 

[clarionreef]

Heres Burton's response:

In regards to the AMDA statement of position:

I thought I would answer some of the comments on reefs.org and reefcentral in mass rather than one at a time.

To start with there was never any mention in our statement of position regarding restraint of trade. The position we have taken is that we are a group of bricks and mortar retailers and aquarium maintenance people that have a mission to learn how to stay in business and improve the hobby by encouraging sustainable and appropriate harvesting procedures of the animals we use in our trade. We take both issues very seriously. Since we are primarily bricks-and-mortar businesses, we decided that our organization should be geared toward just local retailers. Local e-tailing (within a 100 mile radius of the store) was included in the discussion and adopted as a position to be taken. This allows the retailers to reach out and expand the demographic in a logical manner. We believe in face to face dealings with customers when it comes to livestock.

Currently the bulk of the livestock suppliers allow their stock to be picked over by mail order houses, local dealers, and collectors before anything is sold to the stores that order from outside the local area. Those people for the most part are us. But I suppose to some that is our fault that we don’t all live in Miami or LA.

One comment that indicated that because Perrin has water on the floor and not an immaculate housekeeper discredits our position that we have to keep our floors and store in very good order, is ridiculous. You couldn't be a broad-based retailer of many different supplies with a store like Perrin's. One OSHA visit would shut a retail store down with water on the floor. Does he have ADA approval for the public and special parking spaces for the handicapped? I could go on for a long time on this issue, but I won’t bore you with the details.

I certainly enjoyed the comment where we were effectively called hypocrites because John Tullock founded the organization and that he was a mail order company. So what? Pilgrims founded this country and I'm certainly happy that that bunch of zealots are not still running it. Organizations change. Live with it. I don't mean to infer that John is a Puritan. He was tired of watching fish die in transit and arriving in poor shape. So am I. So is the rest of the AMDA board. We don’t necessarily all agree on how it is done, but we do agree that something needs to be done about how our fish are caught and only buying by low price is not the way to handle it. This concept will ultimately creep into market place.

Our businesses come from the neighborhoods. We contribute to the community. Some scoffed at my comment about b&m retailers being the cornerstone of the hobby, but we are. Without us there would be no hobby. There are people not as aware of the hobby/science that the advanced hobbyist who tries to act as the judge and the jury in these matters, but for the most part there are some very good people that are involved. Many times one store makes the difference in the area. The others just tag along and live off the good will of the one store. Sounds like e-tailers and mass merchants. I will promise the public that their local retailers make a difference to the hobby. Maybe not to the high-end aquarist, but when something is needed in a hurry they are there for you and they need to be supported. Spending $10 and expecting $50 worth of service in labor is not the way to keep good people in business.

One individual did recognize that the local stores create interest, which is the point of the letter. In regards to AMDA we encourage members to be a part of the community, to be involved in education, and to not sell fish that are caught and shipped improperly. We have also had a number of discussions about selling fish on impulse. It is not appropriate.

Our problems in b&m retail are different than those of e-commerce, and we choose to be with our own. We need to solve our own problems. Not once did we ever blame anyone for buying where they want. Not once did we ever insinuate that the public was going to change. The public by it's very nature, will always play both ends from the middle.

We complain that jobs are exported overseas, but we buy at Wal Mart. Most fish equipment looks very American, but most is made in Taiwan, Italy, China, Korea, etc. It is the nature of business and we don't blame anyone, but we do have a choice on who we "hang with", what we sell, and who we sell it to. I choose not to hang with manufacturers that don’t support us. I choose not to hang with e-commerce in most instances. I choose to support distributors that use net-caught fish for the bulk of our purchases. For years I chose not to use Philippine fish in our stores. Does it hurt business? Certainly it does, but I know that if we all stopped buying fish from countries that use cyanide, would stop it in a few weeks. That is the premise I would hope more AMDA members take.

The public complains that there is no service in stores and people are rude. There are reasons. If the consumer only is buying for price, the net effect is to gravitate toward the least common denominator. That's free trade at work. We don't deny it. The pendulum does swing back and forth. One day everybody is eating low fat and low protein. The next day we eat high fat and high protein. Life is like that. Today the menu consists of many fish improperly taken, improperly shipped, and improperly handled at the site of catch, and many times mishandled at the distributor level. We are trying to effect change. We sure can't get it done with quasi government organizations that do nothing but worry by the hour for the pay. We are working on the problem and we do it for free.

If any of you go to the AMDA Reef Website you will see an article on the captive raising of fish caught in the plankton of the oceans by Gilles LeCaillon. We are involved and we are interested in doing things right.

There was a comment about me owning Pet Supplies "Plus" stores. PSP is a franchise group. We come with all sorts of background. Mine is aquatic biology, management of large farms and a solid background in zoo management. That represents 35 years of animal husbandry experience. I like to think that the mix of people within the company make us a stronger organization. Like many stores, many chains, etc. some are run better than others.

Now what have I done with my six Pet Supply Plus stores in the community? I did a weekly radio show on Pet Care that was highly regarded on one of the biggest radio stations in America for 5 years. For reference call Rob Pratte at KDKA for references. I now do a Pet Care Hour on the local cable news channel dealing specifically with issues like the Nemo craze and turtle care. At Easter I did an entire show on pets not to buy on impulse. That show was aired three times on network TV. I do a weekly column in 18 local Pittsburgh papers on pet care. Last week's column was on the inadvisability of using bowls for goldfish and that we don't consider them throw away pets.

If you would like to find out what we have done for the local Aquarium Society (GPASI) I suggest you talk to the GPASI to find out what we do. Maybe some of the dissenters and snobs could learn something. I don't see F&S, Petco, PetsMart, That Fish Place, Pet Warehouse, or WalMart at any of the functions sponsored by local pet groups. Oh, I forgot they are too busy selling the faster moving items while the people in the b&m stores create the hobby.

Additionally, we recently switched three of our six stores to only captive raised and captive bred fish. We were one of the first supporters of C-Quest. We advertised and talked extensively on the use of green sailfin mollies to start marine aquariums. We eliminated all undergravel filters 11 years ago. We were the first to use AquaDyne monitors to keep track of our units both in the store and over the internet. We take fish health seriously.

We do a little more than most, and we do it locally. We do not consider livestock as a profit center. The rent is too high, the electricity too expensive, and the labor costs out of sight. To make money on livestock you need to have a certain impulse selling strategy. We do not do this. We were the first to use locally grown coral raised commercially by Anthony Calfo, and if you look at Anthony Calfo's book you will find that we were one of the first to do so.

Now for the end of my little speech. Of the top 10 managers in our company there is over 170 years of pet care experience. They are proud of what they do. For the government to tie our hands behind our back and let e-commerce trounce all over us while they tax the hell out of us is so inane as to try the sanity of most thinking people. Every person that buys a product out of state that doesn't have reciprocity is breaking the law. We don't have those options. For somebody to say we are whiners because we want a level playing field from manufacturers, distributors, and government makes me really mad and I choose not to associate with those that do not support what I consider the foundation of this business.

I would also like to state that my involvement with the people in AMDA has allowed me to understand the depth of the problem in regards to catch procedures, shipping, and fish health from the fishermen to us. It is an understanding that has taken me to a different level of understanding of the breadth of the problem that is upon us. Cheap fish are usually caught with cyanide. The aquarium industry is not the main problem in regards to the destruction of the reefs, but we are involved and we could be more effective in our objections to the catch and shipping procedures. and that is what we are about. So to AMDA I thank them for the education. I sure haven’t gotten that information from the e-tailers. Buy and sell is the mantra. There is more to our business than that when it comes to the environment and the ethical treatment of the animals from the sea. In the past some of our members only wanted to deal with domestic issues and not involve ourselves with the sources of our livestock. If we don’t who represents us? We can no longer put our head in the sand. Nothing will get done unless we stop buying the fish that are caught improperly with cyanide and shipped like these animals are cord wood.


The position statement was meant to spur comment. Some comments were thoughtful. Some just spiteful. We hope that more community retailers will join us and be part of the ongoing debate. We think it is important to define the mission of our respective businesses. Without more participation from b&m retailers, we are less for it.

Burton Patrick
AMDA BOD, Director at Large

 

[Money Pit]

Yawn
Let's face it AMDA is doomed if the consumers will not back your efforts. I personally was set to place an order from Harbor Aquatics.com until I noticed the AMDA membership logo on their home page. My problem is not with AMDA, but rather the people it chooses to speak on it's behalf. Cortez is so unlikable and his rhetoric so objectionable and offensive that my dislike for him has transferred to the AMDA. It's unfortunate and I hope for the sake of AMDA that you try to polish your image, otherwise I have a feeling more of your members will find themselves out of business as well. I may be the only one who feels this way but I doubt it.

 

[Anonymous]

Its denifitly your loss not buying from Harbor, she's got insane coral. Guess you gotta leave the board as well, as Harbor sponsers the board. BTW Money Pit, have you noticed Cortez signs his posts with his name? Sure is easy hiding and typing, isn't it (the internet, the great equalizer)? At least Steve has the guts to stand up to the cyanide cartel for 20 some odd years, and yourself? Ever had your life threatend over your beliefs? Steve's passions lies in helping rid the world of this problem (cyanide collections), wheres your passion (other then now hating AMDA)? With over 30 articles in print on the subject, I'd say he's got to be one of the most passionate reformers this industry has ever known. He talks the talk and walks the walk, barely anyone can say that. Your definitly right, he's not too likeable, to the cyanide cartel in Jakarta and Manilla (all of which are MAC supporters, hmm?). He's the only thing the brings those criminals together, they're common hatred of Steve Robinson. NGO's with millions backing them can't even get a raised eyebrow from those criminals, but when you mention Steve's name, they all have something to say. I wish this industry had more unlikeable characters such as Steve, we wouldn't be in half the mess were in now.

 

[Anonymous]

And prior to you pointing out common knowledge, yes I do work for Steve, never tried to hide that fact.