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MelanieF

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Hi everyone. I'm not sure if I should keep doing business with one of my LFS stores anymore. I have been in the planning stages of upgrading from a 29 gallon to a 75 gallon for the past few months. Last night the owner of my favorite LFS told me that I HAD to buy a reef ready tank from him otherwise he wouldn't sell me anything else for setting up the 75 gallon. Now he may have been just trying to scare me but I honestly don't feel that is necessary.

I can get a 75 gallon regular tank from Petworld here for $105 and the stand for a little more than that. I was going to get a VHO setup for lighting providing 260 watts. No sump. 80 lbs. of live rock and 40 lbs. of sand. Two powerheads and a hang on the back filter with just the material in it to catch debris. (no carbon) This guy at the LFS told me I have to buy a reef ready from him for over $250 in order to have a healthy tank.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there some of you out there who have had successful tanks for many years without a sump?

I plan on having a Kole Tang, Atlantic Blue Tang, Fire Goby, 3 Yellow-tail Damsels, and possibly a Royal Gramma in the 75 gallon. I am under the impression that as long as you add fish one at a time and slowly that the bacteria will develope accordingly to take care of their waste.

If I am wrong about this please let me know so that I can tuck my tail and follow the directions I was given.

Thanks in advance.

Mel
 
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Anonymous

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It is possible to do well with a fish only setup with no sump. In fact, one of my tank (110gal) is currently setup as a reef tank with no sump.

If you want, you can still continue to do business with him.

Oh, you may want to find out more about protein skimmer... IMO, it is a very useful device for both FO and reef tank.
 

MelanieF

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Thank ya very much Buck Neked. That's a pretty creative name and avatar BTW...

I actually told the guy at the LFS that I would also include a protein skimmer and he told me that there aren't any hang-on-the-back ones that work worth a #$@*. I've heard bad things about the Sea Clone. Are there any you could suggest that you've had a good experience with?

I do also plan on having some corals in the tank as I have to be able to garden still when it's snowing outside. :lol:

That was another thing the guy @ LFS did. He told me I should buy the expensive Blastomussa as it's what the "in" crowd is into right now. I personally didn't think it was all that so left without one. I've gotta give the guy some credit though as he let me borrow a $60 book about corals off his shelf to read. Supposedly I'll be tested on it so I shouldn't just look at the pictures. Some people just have funky personalities but that's all good.

I'm sure I'll keep shopping there. Just not for the tank.
 

reefann

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I read the first paragraph and I would have walked out of the store!!!!!!!
Yes reef ready is great to have but not necissary at all!
Thats why they make these things called overflow boxes! AND yes tanks can be run great on sumpless if steps are taken to have them function properly
I would never go in that store untill I had my reef totally packed with corals, then I would go in and say because you were pushy here is what you didnt sell me biatch.
As for hang on skimmers I have heard great things about BackPack skimmers, although I have never used on.
Good luck on your reef
JJ
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cdeakle

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Your LFS is just trying to make another sale.

You can have that tank setup without a sump if you want to. A sump is not a necesity but of course its very helpful.

I would also suggest more than just 2 powerheads. I would ahve 4 if I were you.

Before I upgraded to a sump I used to have a CPR Bakpak hang on skimmer and I liked it. It performs well as long as you keep it well maintained.

-puff
 

cdeakle

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"I would never go in that store untill I had my reef totally packed with corals, then I would go in and say because you were pushy here is what you didnt sell me biatch. "

Sounds good to me! :lol:
 

MelanieF

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ROFFLMAO! Thanks guys. That just made my last few minutes at work pretty funny. I could just picture the look on his face when I called him biatch. :lol:

Anyway, so if I had four powerheads instead of two how would I want to place them? One in each corner? That would look a little goofy. You'll all probably tell me to put them wherever they're needed so lets strike that question from the record.

Luckily there are two other Saltwater dedicated stores in my area so I have other options. One of them has awesome corals and diseased fish and the other one has awesome fish and horrid looking corals. Between the two I should be able to stock my tank. Maybe if I only buy healthy fish from the one store they will start taking better care of their corals and vice versa...

At this point I've had some bad experiences with internet sales so I won't even attempt that when it comes to this hobby. Maybe in a few years I'll feel differently.

Well I won't be able to check this thread again until Monday so I hope you all have a kick @$$ weekend!

Mel
 

mountainbiker619

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"Last night the owner of my favorite LFS told me that I HAD to buy a reef ready tank from him otherwise he wouldn't sell me anything else for setting up the 75 gallon"
I would have told that knucklehead what was he going to tell him family when they have no food available to eat because I am taking my business elsewhere to someone who appriciates my business. CPR Bakpak or a Aqua C Remora Pro hang-on would suffice very well. I am currently using both and like the BakPak with the surface skim box option but I think the Remora performs better (but I dislike the rather large Mag-3 pump that it uses).
 
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Anonymous

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Mabelle, unfortuantely there are a lot of people selling saltwater fish/corals/gear who are clueless - maybe he actually believes this. More likely they are preying on the large number of neophytes who get into marine aquariums and get railroaded buying stuff they don't need.


Sumpless works fine - I will say though a reef ready tank is great in that if you do ever change your mind you can easily add a sump and the plumbing. You can use the 'reef ready' tank without a sump but you will have to close off the drain/returns with pvc plugs/bulkheads. In the long run I can only give you my reccomendation that a sump is a great thing to have but not essential to a functioning system.

Whatever system you go with I would reecomend getting some kind of nutrient export device - a protein skimmer is well night essential. They are not substitutes for regular water changes but you will be amazed at the amount of waste floating around a good skimmer pulls out. If you want to plan ahead let me suggest you buy more protein skimmer and lights than you need, these are cheaper to buy at the outset and more is 'usually' better.

Also I would like to warn you the Atlantic blue tang will get BIG, you could keep him in the 75 for life possibly but I'd just stick with the Kole and get another non-tang type fish to round out your selection.
 

Len

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Not to sound like I'm defending that particular LFS, but if you're planning on a sump, reef-ready is really the way to go. But a mark up of $150 for it is absurd, and the ultimatum to buy it or he won't sell you anything else is despicable.
 

reefann

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Not to sound like I'm defending that particular LFS, but if you're planning on a sump, reef-ready is really the way to go.

For Sure, it is a great feature to have, and a simple recomendation would do. The fact that he said you "HAVE TO" and "I wont sell you anything else", is crazy.
Melbelle1820- if you plan on going with a sump I would get a drilled tank, but not from that store.
Good luck with the tank
JJ
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Mouse

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Sorry to join this conversation from a different point of view, but hear me out.

Mr LFS man knows you want a reef, ive got quite a bit of expirience myself, and ive found that yes there are many ways to do things, and yes you can do it for cheaper, but at the end of the day its not really what you want. And by the time youve baought all the second rate gear, been through a bucket full of shoddy powerheads and spent hours and hours researching how your going to improve a very tempremental system. Well lets say that i dont think reef readys such a bad option afterall.

I can get a 75 gallon regular tank from Petworld here for $105 and the stand for a little more than that. I was going to get a VHO setup for lighting providing 260 watts. No sump. 80 lbs. of live rock and 40 lbs. of sand. Two powerheads and a hang on the back filter with just the material in it to catch debris. (no carbon) This guy at the LFS told me I have to buy a reef ready from him for over $250 in order to have a healthy tank.

I can see from this statement that firstly you have greatly underestimated the importance of circulation, if your going to achive circulating 10 times the aquarium volume per hour with two powerheads the i can tell you your velocitys will be so high that your corals probably wont have much tissue left after a week.

Secondly, theirs no controller for the circulation, so an alternating current is out of the question, unless you go for rotating pumps. But are these ever crappy, man youll have a bucket of them before the year is out, and noisy sheesh. Get something like the Tunze Streams on a wave controller, SWEEEEEEET.

40lb,s of sand is a bit general, especially seen as your only form of nutrient export is a hang on the back "filter", which im sure your actually refering to a Skimmer. The sand bed should ideally be 4inches deep of oolitic 2-3mm grains of Arragonite sand. Read up on DSB's and im sure you will see the light. The anoxic area of LR is going to be too small to denitrify to a nitrogen gas efficiently enough to keep Nitrates to 0, especially with a crappy hang on skimmer. And with no sump your going to have to have the DSB inside the tank. Seen as this effectively will have to be a very proactive component of the system, eliminating dead spots is vital to ensure that it works efficiently, your rockworks going to have to be perfect. Your husbandry will also have to be restricted to micro fauna and infauna freindly inhabitants, because again you cant have this DSB screwed arround with, and if you ever have to work on the DSB its going to be a mare. My solution, a macro algal DSB refugium or "sump". The sump is also usefull to place things like heaters so you dont harm animals in the main system who might decide to go to sleep o it at night or something.

Carbon = bad, unless your going full on LPS, SPS and softys, but lets just take this one step at a time i think. So good there.

When you say VHO's i assume your talking about Flourecents, why not go for T5's, same price but they last longer, stay brighter, and are truer to their origional spectral output for longer, and generate less heat.

I would also think your going to expirience heat bulid up in the summer, so the use of T5's over regular flourecents would be advised as they generate much less heat. And lets face it if your on a shoe string the last thing you want to shell out for is a $1000 chiller, allthough to fill a 75G your probably talking about the equivalent in coral's, so thier defenately worth it in the long run. Or id say its as important to consider heat exchange as a problem if you intend on doing without. Another reason why the powerheads are going to give you headaches. If your going to skip on the chiller go for a Closed Loop Circulation System, much less heat exchange.

Ok, on to Cacium supply, well you could dose Kalkwasser nightly thorough a drip. Which is the cheapest way to go, but its another chore to add to the list because your tank will need everything including its ass wiped if your going so bare boned. Id personally go for a Cacium reactor, which reall needs a sump to dose into, and then when your tired of checking the PH every day to adjust the flow rate of calcium, im sure youll end up getting a PH prope and computer controller. Preserving probes in a reef tank is a real mission, so youll want a dark area to stop the corraline growing, like a er, sump i guess. And once your cruzing allong with your calcium reactor youll probably end up going for a kalkwasser reactor to work with your automated topoff system. Which again really benefits from a sump. Unless your going to keep this FO, in which case youll not have to be too concerned about this.

Anyways my point being, if you want a reef the guys bang on, i dont think he had the time to talk you through buying every component and designing the system for you, so a reef ready is great, you can learn whats important and what brings the best results and then hone it later on to suit your particular biotope. If you only want to keep fish, then i think he's a bit off with the reef ready, but honestly, if you want a FO then a FO you will have, dont even think of trying to "upgrade" it to a reef, because with your system components youll have to chuck the lott and strat again.

Got RO/DI?

FO, consider UV

makes a change from the usual "yea you can have Nemo in a goldfish bowl" type scenarois. I dont think he was trying to scare you, but if he did maybee you should think carefully about what you really want.

His reccomendation of the blastomosa is actually quite good, nice easy coral to grow, and fairly cheap as far as the acro's, monty's and piorites go. And if the guys willing to LEND you a book id say he's an LFS saint. Id have made you buy probably two books at least before i would even talk to you about a system, no point otherwise your never going to take it all in for a half hour conversatin in a shop, ive been keeping fish for knocking on 15 years or so and i still learn new stuff.

I read the first paragraph and I would have walked out of the store!!!!!!!

then you would have walked away from someone who cares about his business and animals, and who's honest and upfront about whats needed.

In the long run I can only give you my reccomendation that a sump is a great thing to have but not essential to a functioning system.

but it sure takes the arse ache out of reefing, do you want to be the slave or the master!!!!!
 
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Anonymous

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Mr LFS man knows you want a reef, ive got quite a bit of expirience myself, and ive found that yes there are many ways to do things, and yes you can do it for cheaper, but at the end of the day its not really what you want. And by the time youve baought all the second rate gear, been through a bucket full of shoddy powerheads and spent hours and hours researching how your going to improve a very tempremental system. Well lets say that i dont think reef readys such a bad option afterall.

"More expensive" doesn't necessarily mean "better" or "higher quality". It can also mean something shoddy with a big markup or something pricey that you don't need. Really the only way to know whether or not you need something is to educate yourself. If you are using your lfs guy as your education source, well then he has a vested interest in giving you something good (so he doesn't completely alienate you) which will at the same time make him a little loot. Yea, hang ons are more of a hassle, but what about a drilling a non-rr tank? That is my preference (despite the fact that it is cheaper and therefore must not be as good). I personally don't care for the big overflow boxes in the corners of the tank.

While you are thinking about having a non reef ready tank drilled, consider having a couple extra holes drilled for a closed loop system.
 
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Anonymous

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Was it 250 just for the tank, or for the tank and sump, or anything else?

Mouse raises some good points, however, the threat of not selling to you is asinine, and would be enough to make me not want to shop there - ever.
There is a herp store near me that does the same kind of thing. They wont sell you an animal unless you buy an entire setup from them as well (a particle board set up to boot). I was astounded at such a policy, and have never given them a dime.
I understand the idea of not selling to someone if they have an inferior setup, but insisting they buy the components from you or you won't sell anything to them in the future is just silly, as well as bad business.
 

Mouse

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Yea but Righty, at least that way the store owner is sure of what you have, can defenately provide support for your purchases and has piece of mind its a good, reliable system. I know of too many people that lie just to walk out with a good animal. Why should people go to the crappy petco next door, buy second rate unrealiable and quite often dangerous stuff (RIO pumps etc, skilters, clones), and then expect a top quality show animal from a dedicated breeder/import dealer to put in it. If i had a shop id be the biggest facist about, and id be damn proud of it too. I think its great this guy has some integrity, but i suppose its yet to be seen weather he'll stand up for his convictions in an error on his part. I say go back to him, impress him with what youve learned and see if he changes his tune. If you went there and said i dont want reef ready because id like to have a closed loop circulation system to minimise heat exchange etc etc. see what he says then. You can hardly critisise someone when you dont know what your talking about. Maybee he was just buisy, and offered the "package" he knew would work.

What if you go to Petco, buy a Rio and it leaks oil in your tank, electricutes your fish and kills the family cat. I know what PetCo would do, but it sounds like if you bought a pump of this guy and that happened he'd take some responsibility (and im sure he wouldn't sell you a Rio anyway), he's allready exibited some standards in the sale of his goods, im sure it would continue through to the service. PetCo will sell you anything as long as the tills are running.
 
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Anonymous

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I know what you are saying, and it will be interesting to see if he changes his tune.

The herp guy I was talking about was weird. He knew who I was, and knew I knew my stuff from our discussions at herp conventions. He just had a store policy and wouldn't bend.
 
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Anonymous

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Well personally, I would much rather have a system with a sump for quite a number of reasons.

I don't care for the guys attitude- but remember one thing: people will go into a LFS and spend forever asking questions, getting free water tests, etc etc... and then drive across the street to petsmart or petco or whatever chain to buy the tank for $10 cheaper. LFS owners probably get annoyed at that.

I agree, the Remora is the best HO skimmer.
 

sammy stingray

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For the longest time, overflows were for nothing more than to have a sump to keep the heater, skimmer, etc. out of the main tank. Most folks awhile back had some bio-balls in the sump as well. To say you can't run a tank without one is silly, and it's been done thousands and thousands of time, and many still do it with great results if they research.....which goes for any tank really. Overflow boxes are quite troublesome in my experiences, and a drilled tank would be great. Instead of the basic old school sump tank, I say think refugium.....much better in my opinion.
 

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