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I wouldn't do it without a sump and withour a rr tank.
Scam artist are truly concerned?
- Thread starter MelanieF
- Start date
HOB overflows work fine. The lifereef overflows are great. www.lifereef.com they also make great HOT skimmers. I ran a 75 sumpless for along time and had no problems. I used a turboflotor HOT that was a great skimmer. I still use it on a 20 gallon now. It handled the 75 very well.
They are ways to save money on this hobby and if you consider the amount of people who get into this hobby for a few years and drop out maybe a cheaper set up to see if you really get into it isnt the worst thing. FWIW, I have used lots of skimmers ( Aqua-c remora HOT, Aqua C ev-120, PM Bullett 3, Turboflotor HOT, Euro-reef CS8-3, and of course my first the suckcloneand a skillter around the same time.) I really like the turboflotor HOT although my favorite is the bullett 3 which is on my 150 now. My 40 gallon has the ev-120 which I don't really think is the best skimmer although alot of people love the aqua c line.
They are ways to save money on this hobby and if you consider the amount of people who get into this hobby for a few years and drop out maybe a cheaper set up to see if you really get into it isnt the worst thing. FWIW, I have used lots of skimmers ( Aqua-c remora HOT, Aqua C ev-120, PM Bullett 3, Turboflotor HOT, Euro-reef CS8-3, and of course my first the suckcloneand a skillter around the same time.) I really like the turboflotor HOT although my favorite is the bullett 3 which is on my 150 now. My 40 gallon has the ev-120 which I don't really think is the best skimmer although alot of people love the aqua c line.
I run a 55 g without a sump and haven`t had a hitch.I have BakPaks on two tanks(125 and 55) and I think they work great.They are only rated for 60 gallons so you may need more than 1 OR they make a model thats basically just a double unit that can handle up to 120g.I removed the bio media from mine on advice that i got in this forum and it has improved the performance.
Cheers to Mouse - I agree with your post.
Let's remember that we are ONLY hearing one side of the story, and the poster's interpretation of what transpired in the LFS. Something tells me (and perhaps my perspective is different because I walk in the LFS owner's shoes) that the recommendation was made somewhat differently than the poster recalls it...
But I digress...
Yes, a sumpless tank is "doable", but let's compare apples with apples...
$250 for a RR tank (I'll assume for a moment that it's an All-Glass tank) is more than reasonable. A 75 g non-reef ready (standard) tank from AGA or even Perfecto (P is lower quality, IMO) wholesales for more than the $105 that the other store is selling for. Therefore it's logical to assume that the other store is either selling glass at a substantial loss, or more likely, the tank is another brand, and so you aren't comparing the same quality between two tanks.
This applies to anything. YES you can get the cheaper tank, and do it with hang on equipment - I maintain a variety of tanks, and deal with a nice 80 gallon reef that is hang-on. However, if the customer was starting from scratch, I'd recommend reef ready for a bunch of reasons. Ditto I just set up a 90 for a customer who had the tank already, and we fitted it with an overflow box and sump, but with overflow boxes come an increased flood risk, they are harder to keep clean, there are just so many reasons to go with a reef ready tank.
Perhaps the LFS owner's comments came from a concern that the hobbyist is only interested in cutting corners, and not providing proper care for the animals - Goodness knows I've "not sold" many things to many people - and I've kept them as happy customers because they know that I have their success and the animals' success in mind. A short term money grab on a creature sure to die, is not a good way to do business, but careful planning and good communication with the customer will assure his success and long-term loyalty.
Can you do it without a sump? Absolutely. However I'd be willing to bet that at some point, regret at not getting a reef-ready tank might set in. What's the hurry? Shop around, get the best price from all dealers in your area, for the tank you want - and do it right the first time.
Having been in the hobby for about 17 years now, I've got a rather hefty salvage box in the attic with stuff I've bought over the years, and most of it was cheap stuff that didn't cut it - and I spent plenty of good money after bad, to upgrade after the fact. I could have saved a bundle in reality, if I had done it right the first time.
And yes, it's really annoying for an LFS owner to answer questions for hours on end, just to have the customer buy online or elsewhere... but unfortunately that comes with the territory. Speaking for myself, it's what I do to help hobbyists with their systems, and most times the reward is from a happy customer. Sometimes it's an investment that rings somebody else's cash register, but if the livestock is healthy as a result of the exchange, then one has to take some satisfaction out of that, even if it doesn't pay the rent
Hopefully if the customer gained useful information he'll remember where he heard it when he's ready to make another purchase.
HTH
Jenn
Let's remember that we are ONLY hearing one side of the story, and the poster's interpretation of what transpired in the LFS. Something tells me (and perhaps my perspective is different because I walk in the LFS owner's shoes) that the recommendation was made somewhat differently than the poster recalls it...
But I digress...
Yes, a sumpless tank is "doable", but let's compare apples with apples...
$250 for a RR tank (I'll assume for a moment that it's an All-Glass tank) is more than reasonable. A 75 g non-reef ready (standard) tank from AGA or even Perfecto (P is lower quality, IMO) wholesales for more than the $105 that the other store is selling for. Therefore it's logical to assume that the other store is either selling glass at a substantial loss, or more likely, the tank is another brand, and so you aren't comparing the same quality between two tanks.
This applies to anything. YES you can get the cheaper tank, and do it with hang on equipment - I maintain a variety of tanks, and deal with a nice 80 gallon reef that is hang-on. However, if the customer was starting from scratch, I'd recommend reef ready for a bunch of reasons. Ditto I just set up a 90 for a customer who had the tank already, and we fitted it with an overflow box and sump, but with overflow boxes come an increased flood risk, they are harder to keep clean, there are just so many reasons to go with a reef ready tank.
Perhaps the LFS owner's comments came from a concern that the hobbyist is only interested in cutting corners, and not providing proper care for the animals - Goodness knows I've "not sold" many things to many people - and I've kept them as happy customers because they know that I have their success and the animals' success in mind. A short term money grab on a creature sure to die, is not a good way to do business, but careful planning and good communication with the customer will assure his success and long-term loyalty.
Can you do it without a sump? Absolutely. However I'd be willing to bet that at some point, regret at not getting a reef-ready tank might set in. What's the hurry? Shop around, get the best price from all dealers in your area, for the tank you want - and do it right the first time.
Having been in the hobby for about 17 years now, I've got a rather hefty salvage box in the attic with stuff I've bought over the years, and most of it was cheap stuff that didn't cut it - and I spent plenty of good money after bad, to upgrade after the fact. I could have saved a bundle in reality, if I had done it right the first time.
And yes, it's really annoying for an LFS owner to answer questions for hours on end, just to have the customer buy online or elsewhere... but unfortunately that comes with the territory. Speaking for myself, it's what I do to help hobbyists with their systems, and most times the reward is from a happy customer. Sometimes it's an investment that rings somebody else's cash register, but if the livestock is healthy as a result of the exchange, then one has to take some satisfaction out of that, even if it doesn't pay the rent
Hopefully if the customer gained useful information he'll remember where he heard it when he's ready to make another purchase.HTH
Jenn
Let me first start by thanking everyone for their feedback. It's good to know I'm not the only one that thought the LFS was a little "off" on their thought pattern about pushing a particular system. This is good ole' America. Where else can I vent about this stuff than the one place where everyone shares my addiction? My husband just kinda gets that glazed over look.
Now, since some of you are so concerned that you're only getting one side of the story, maybe I should also mention that this guy has never steered me wrong but as of late makes me uncomfortable by calling me sweetcakes and other names when I come in. He knows I just got married and decided to tell me recently "What did ya go and do that for? I was going to call you." Um, consider me clueless but isn't it respectful to just say congratulations and lay off the flirting? (That is likely the only reason he let me borrow a book) He always makes sure he has plenty of time to talk to me so pushing the rr isn't his way of doing the right thing when not having time for questions. And ya know what ticks me off? Some of you LFS people automatically defend others in the same business without bothering to consider the fact that you don't know the person that the conversation is about. Maybe I shouldn't shop at your store either?
At what point did you get the impression that he "scared" me? I am confident that I am well educated on this hobby but just like you, NONE of us know everything.
Also, this guy knows that I take care of all of my animals as though they were my children since as of this point I don't think I can have any. I don't have your "typical" religious beliefs. My religion revolves around nature completely and nothing else. The last thing I would ever do is jeopardize the health of my "babies". For anyone to insinuate that I haven't done my research is ignorant. You can see that I joined this forum in 2001 and let me assure you that I've been reading a lot of material in books and online and even though I don't have as many posts as others in this website that doesn't mean I don't observe all of the incoming information.
Thanks for the recommendations on skimmers and a couple extra powerheads.
Also, thanks to those of you recommending reef-ready tanks but I have been planning and researching this project for the past 3 years without starting it so I know that I can have a perfectly healthy tank without all the extra bells and whistles. And like you, I'm sure that someday I will start another tank w/ a sump but that won't be until I actually buy a house instead of renting. As far as being a slave and maintaining the tank all the time instead of being a master, I'm staring at my tanks all the time anyway so I might as well be doing something useful. :wink:
So in sum, thank you all very much for the feedback. I used to read in disgust a while back when people were flamed all the time and am glad to see most of you have minds that are open enough to ask questions before assuming what you like.
Now, since some of you are so concerned that you're only getting one side of the story, maybe I should also mention that this guy has never steered me wrong but as of late makes me uncomfortable by calling me sweetcakes and other names when I come in. He knows I just got married and decided to tell me recently "What did ya go and do that for? I was going to call you." Um, consider me clueless but isn't it respectful to just say congratulations and lay off the flirting? (That is likely the only reason he let me borrow a book) He always makes sure he has plenty of time to talk to me so pushing the rr isn't his way of doing the right thing when not having time for questions. And ya know what ticks me off? Some of you LFS people automatically defend others in the same business without bothering to consider the fact that you don't know the person that the conversation is about. Maybe I shouldn't shop at your store either?
At what point did you get the impression that he "scared" me? I am confident that I am well educated on this hobby but just like you, NONE of us know everything.
Also, this guy knows that I take care of all of my animals as though they were my children since as of this point I don't think I can have any. I don't have your "typical" religious beliefs. My religion revolves around nature completely and nothing else. The last thing I would ever do is jeopardize the health of my "babies". For anyone to insinuate that I haven't done my research is ignorant. You can see that I joined this forum in 2001 and let me assure you that I've been reading a lot of material in books and online and even though I don't have as many posts as others in this website that doesn't mean I don't observe all of the incoming information.
Thanks for the recommendations on skimmers and a couple extra powerheads.
Also, thanks to those of you recommending reef-ready tanks but I have been planning and researching this project for the past 3 years without starting it so I know that I can have a perfectly healthy tank without all the extra bells and whistles. And like you, I'm sure that someday I will start another tank w/ a sump but that won't be until I actually buy a house instead of renting. As far as being a slave and maintaining the tank all the time instead of being a master, I'm staring at my tanks all the time anyway so I might as well be doing something useful. :wink:
So in sum, thank you all very much for the feedback. I used to read in disgust a while back when people were flamed all the time and am glad to see most of you have minds that are open enough to ask questions before assuming what you like.
Hmm well I don't just rush to defend *anyone* and everyone in the business (you should see some of my stuff in the Industry Forum... my avatar is what it is for a reason...). However the advice was sound, and the price was reasonable, and you cannot go wrong with a reef ready tank for the reasons listed above. That was my feedback on that matter. You *did* ask for feedback, didn't you? You got a variety of opinions, some for and some against reef ready tanks, and I for one said that either was workable, but if you've got to make a choice, I've never known any customer to regret buying a RR tank. Have had plenty wishing they'd splurged in the first place. Had a few upgrade after the fact...you asked, I answered. Nobody's got a gun to your head to take anybody's experience or advice.
You presented information, and asked for comments, lest you should "tuck in your tail" and do as suggested. I and others offered it up, but you appear to have your mind made up, so not sure why you asked in the first place? You said you thought the LFS owner was "trying to scare" (you) so it's logical that the assumption was that he succeeded since you were second-guessing your original plan.
You never mentioned the LFS owner's untoward behavior - in your initial post it was your "favorite LFS". It's a big stretch from your #1 store to the guy is a boor... but if you feel that he only let you borrow the book because he has an ulterior motive, you only sent him a green light signal by taking it. If the guy is really a fink, I don't understand why you would want to return there. If it were me, I'd return the book and tell him I don't appreciate his advances. If the advances didn't stop, I wouldn't go there again. Or, if I wasn't up to confronting him about his unwanted advances, I wouldn't go back at all... but hey, that's just *me*.
Something tells me there are more layers to this onion...
It's funny to read these boards sometimes - LFS owners/workers get slammed all the time for selling crappy or substandard equipment to hobbyists, who then have to put good money after bad to upgrade. Now the LFS owner (his bad manners notwithstanding) is getting the shaft because he IS trying to convince the hobbyist to buy it right the first time.
We in this industry can't win for losing, can we?
Jenn
You presented information, and asked for comments, lest you should "tuck in your tail" and do as suggested. I and others offered it up, but you appear to have your mind made up, so not sure why you asked in the first place? You said you thought the LFS owner was "trying to scare" (you) so it's logical that the assumption was that he succeeded since you were second-guessing your original plan.
You never mentioned the LFS owner's untoward behavior - in your initial post it was your "favorite LFS". It's a big stretch from your #1 store to the guy is a boor... but if you feel that he only let you borrow the book because he has an ulterior motive, you only sent him a green light signal by taking it. If the guy is really a fink, I don't understand why you would want to return there. If it were me, I'd return the book and tell him I don't appreciate his advances. If the advances didn't stop, I wouldn't go there again. Or, if I wasn't up to confronting him about his unwanted advances, I wouldn't go back at all... but hey, that's just *me*.
Something tells me there are more layers to this onion...
It's funny to read these boards sometimes - LFS owners/workers get slammed all the time for selling crappy or substandard equipment to hobbyists, who then have to put good money after bad to upgrade. Now the LFS owner (his bad manners notwithstanding) is getting the shaft because he IS trying to convince the hobbyist to buy it right the first time.
We in this industry can't win for losing, can we?
Jenn
Well if the LFS owner tells me he won't sell me anything but that reef ready then I guess that's his right. My plan already was to return the book and not go there again. I wasn't second guessing myself as I hadn't definitively made up my mind about sump vs. not. I was looking to find out from you all if it was a reasonable thing for a LFS owner to tell me that's the only thing he'd sell me.
Thanks for your opinions. I wasn't trying to get nasty with you or anything. I was just making sure that you knew I wasn't some ignorant customer flaming a LFS owner as you suggested in a previous post. I have refused to buy things from Petco and the like because I do try to support the LFS stores in this area but Petco has never told me what I had to buy. And to open some minds about the quality of information at Petco, there are 4 of them in my area. Yes, 3 of them are utterly ignorant but 1 is very full of information and will not sell a fish to someone that doesn't know how to take care of it. That's the one I go to for everything I need for my African Plated Lizard and Columbian Tegu.
This whole hobby is open to interpretation and while one thing works well for most, a completely different idea works better for others. This is how advances are made in this hobby. It is very frustrating to think that some people will go so far as to say there is only one way to keep a reef tank long term. I never got into horseback competitions because it would subject me to some really stuck up snotty people with similar mind sets. And someday when I'm breeding Paso Fino horses and making at least $20,000 profit on a horse I trained myself I will get to look back on those who thought they knew it all and smile. If we know it all then what is the point of breathing?
Thanks for your opinions. I wasn't trying to get nasty with you or anything. I was just making sure that you knew I wasn't some ignorant customer flaming a LFS owner as you suggested in a previous post. I have refused to buy things from Petco and the like because I do try to support the LFS stores in this area but Petco has never told me what I had to buy. And to open some minds about the quality of information at Petco, there are 4 of them in my area. Yes, 3 of them are utterly ignorant but 1 is very full of information and will not sell a fish to someone that doesn't know how to take care of it. That's the one I go to for everything I need for my African Plated Lizard and Columbian Tegu.
This whole hobby is open to interpretation and while one thing works well for most, a completely different idea works better for others. This is how advances are made in this hobby. It is very frustrating to think that some people will go so far as to say there is only one way to keep a reef tank long term. I never got into horseback competitions because it would subject me to some really stuck up snotty people with similar mind sets. And someday when I'm breeding Paso Fino horses and making at least $20,000 profit on a horse I trained myself I will get to look back on those who thought they knew it all and smile. If we know it all then what is the point of breathing?
Here's just a little update for you all...
The owner of the store which I have been talking about used to work at one of the other LFS stores here a while back which is how I first started dealing w/ him. Found out from owner of the old LFS today that this person was fired for many reasons. One of which was pushing people to go with "his way, the right way" for setting up their tanks. Also flirted a little too much with customers even after he got MARRIED! I can't stop laughing. This is all just too much. I know I can be gullible sometimes but I used to think he was the best person for advice about this hobby. -Insert eyeballs and blink- Sometimes it's anything to make a sale, right?
I really hope that his wife reads this and catches a drift of what is going on. I wouldn't really feel bad about it either as he brought it upon himself.
This conversation came about w/ owner of old store as I was confirming w/ him that some people think there's only one way to succeed in this hobby and how ridiculous it all is. I seriously can't stop laughing... There's nothing more than being caught in a lie to make someone look like the biggest idiot in the world. :lol:
The owner of the store which I have been talking about used to work at one of the other LFS stores here a while back which is how I first started dealing w/ him. Found out from owner of the old LFS today that this person was fired for many reasons. One of which was pushing people to go with "his way, the right way" for setting up their tanks. Also flirted a little too much with customers even after he got MARRIED! I can't stop laughing. This is all just too much. I know I can be gullible sometimes but I used to think he was the best person for advice about this hobby. -Insert eyeballs and blink- Sometimes it's anything to make a sale, right?
I really hope that his wife reads this and catches a drift of what is going on. I wouldn't really feel bad about it either as he brought it upon himself.
This conversation came about w/ owner of old store as I was confirming w/ him that some people think there's only one way to succeed in this hobby and how ridiculous it all is. I seriously can't stop laughing... There's nothing more than being caught in a lie to make someone look like the biggest idiot in the world. :lol:
myself
go reef ready FIRST
dont bother with hangons, have you even checked how much a lifereef hang on is ? add that to a el-cheapo tank, gotta have tank futher way from the wall, make sure it never clogs, yada yada then how much does it come to ? (90.00 to 170.00 from their web page plus 105 for the tank, you're close to a 250 price)
250.00 for tank only on a 75 might be a bit high, first of all, go find out what kind it is
oceanic, hmm might not be so bad, I paid 675 for my 180, driled and all.
go reef ready FIRST
dont bother with hangons, have you even checked how much a lifereef hang on is ? add that to a el-cheapo tank, gotta have tank futher way from the wall, make sure it never clogs, yada yada then how much does it come to ? (90.00 to 170.00 from their web page plus 105 for the tank, you're close to a 250 price)
250.00 for tank only on a 75 might be a bit high, first of all, go find out what kind it is
oceanic, hmm might not be so bad, I paid 675 for my 180, driled and all.
I'm sure that a reef ready tank would also work well but here are a few reasons why I'm veering away from that idea. I know they probably will sound ridiculous to those of you proficient in hooking up a reef ready tank...
-I rent. If the sump or tank ever overflowed it would be my @$$. I know my landlord and yeah, I have renter's insurance but it would take my landlord at least 6 months to a year to fix any damages and that's giving him some credit. :lol: My husband and I actually had to do all of the painting and sanded/sealed the hardwoods ourselves as we had already waited a year for the apartment and were sick of waiting.
-I don't have any friends that are inclined as far as plumbing goes and I'd rather not pay someone to come to my house to hook it all up for me. Let alone if there was ever a problem w/ it I wouldn't have the first clue on how to fix it which is extremely important in emergency situations.
I am willing to maintain all of the equipment I would need when going w/out a reef ready. I am not one of those people who justs wants "something pretty" in their livingroom. I want to interact with my reef tank. Tweaking this or cleaning that really aren't issues for me. I do it all the time with my freshwater tanks and I've had a 29 gallon reef in the past without any problems. (Had to leave it w/ the X-boyfriend. Grrr.)
Any thoughts from you all are welcome and to those of you who have already posted, thank you for giving me some food for thought.
Melanie
-I rent. If the sump or tank ever overflowed it would be my @$$. I know my landlord and yeah, I have renter's insurance but it would take my landlord at least 6 months to a year to fix any damages and that's giving him some credit. :lol: My husband and I actually had to do all of the painting and sanded/sealed the hardwoods ourselves as we had already waited a year for the apartment and were sick of waiting.
-I don't have any friends that are inclined as far as plumbing goes and I'd rather not pay someone to come to my house to hook it all up for me. Let alone if there was ever a problem w/ it I wouldn't have the first clue on how to fix it which is extremely important in emergency situations.
I am willing to maintain all of the equipment I would need when going w/out a reef ready. I am not one of those people who justs wants "something pretty" in their livingroom. I want to interact with my reef tank. Tweaking this or cleaning that really aren't issues for me. I do it all the time with my freshwater tanks and I've had a 29 gallon reef in the past without any problems. (Had to leave it w/ the X-boyfriend. Grrr.)
Any thoughts from you all are welcome and to those of you who have already posted, thank you for giving me some food for thought.
Melanie
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