HAHAHA.... I really don;t want to sound rude, but I just can't understand what the hell you guys are talking about. Sure amateurs may contribute occasionally, you've got many more people with home reef for example, than highly educated scientists who specialize in studying reefs, and they observe constantly. So just the numbers tell you that some piece of information likely to be contributed to science occasionally. But the amateurs constantly saving the scientists butts? And having a less limited view of subject, and on and on.... that's a joke and you guess are being ridiculous, snap out of it.
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chef is no science..there really isnt a science behind culinary..talent yes, is it science, not really...you try to get a B.S. in cooking..i think its considered more artsy than science...but in this hobby you learn a little ichthyology, little chemistry, botany, etc....hence my comment we as hobbists have a little science in our background when we take on the "art" of reefkeeping...
Not to argue, it doesnt really matter, but I would have thought being a chef isnt practicing a science either, until my girlfriend took a bunch of culinary classes. You learn about diseases, agriculture and all kinds of ****. I have a reef tank, she does culinary, and they are comparable in many ways, including sharing an artistic element. But I wouldn't define maintaining a reef tank and making observations as being on the scientific level that real educated scientists are, that's just another level entirely. Many people can make a reef tank that couldn't cut it in medical school, ect. Scientists basically devote a decade of specialized education and a lifetime of research to what they do. You could take reefing to that level, but almost everybody on this board probably has not.LordNikon":1jx8rtzg said:
Main point: to be a "scientist" is very vague the way it has been defined in this discussion. Hobbyists are not superior to educated scientists. That is a stupid and narcissistic claim for us to make. In most cases, they are capable of contributing a limited amount of information.
Contrare Mon Frair...i disagree with you...Med student drop out maintaining a reef is irrelevant..anyone can maintain a reef...not everyone can paint or play the piano...thats the dif...culinary and reefkeeping may share similar aspects when it comes to art however i dont think you can classify "culinary" as a science...Experienced hobbists can be equals if not superior to an educated scientist..why not...so you have a degree...I know of Electrical Engineers that have no degree...many years experience though...yet you couldnt classify them as a scientist w/o a degree???? i dont think its narcissitic or shallow to make a statement like that....however i dont consider myself an expert...
LordNikon":380ss7pv said:
Well it's an interesting conversation. I'm not very interested in who we do or do not call a scientist. Naming or defining something doesn't influence its productivity. And you can make any activity a science, it depends on what you do with it and how you study it. Of course there are some people with crappy degrees, or that never use the knowledge and forget everything they learned, and some hobbyists that study reefs for years and apply the scientific method. Those are generally exceptions. An employed scientist with a PHD is not an idiot. He had more knowledge and resources available then we do. Reef keeping is a hobby.
... typo there.... reef keeping is a hobby compared to serious scientific research. Lets not kid ourselves. If you don't like it go argue with a scientist with a masters degree about your personal contributions to science that scientists couldn't have discovered on their own, and tell me how it works out for you.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Gentleman,
Though mindful and respectful of the contributions of science to our daily lives...I wanted to share with you the image that the term 'scientist' conjures up in the minds of fisherman in a small village in Baja, Mexico.
1] A guy who always throws up in the boat
2] A guy that has to ask the poor illiterate fisherman what 1/3 of the fish are...since they know all the fish to begin with and the scientist never does.
3] A guy who never can complete more than 3 -4 hours of survey work underwater because hes to pooped to continue, especially if any current is running...unlike the fisherman who can dive all day.
4] A guy who alays has his hand out for cash per diems that the fisherman are forced to pay for the service of being monitored by a scientist.
5] A guy who never gets to see the mating dance of the bluespot jawfish because he has not the hunters instinct to approach them stealthily enough.
6] A guy who 'wants' to culture everything in the city based labratoryand ban everthing else leaving the fisherman poorer then ever.
Now to be sure there have been and are scientists who are not like this. However, in the experience of this village of fisherman...they have never seen such scientists that only I claim exists!
Ironic how scientists are seen as the first people of credibility by some and the last people of credibility by others.
Steve
Though mindful and respectful of the contributions of science to our daily lives...I wanted to share with you the image that the term 'scientist' conjures up in the minds of fisherman in a small village in Baja, Mexico.
1] A guy who always throws up in the boat
2] A guy that has to ask the poor illiterate fisherman what 1/3 of the fish are...since they know all the fish to begin with and the scientist never does.
3] A guy who never can complete more than 3 -4 hours of survey work underwater because hes to pooped to continue, especially if any current is running...unlike the fisherman who can dive all day.
4] A guy who alays has his hand out for cash per diems that the fisherman are forced to pay for the service of being monitored by a scientist.
5] A guy who never gets to see the mating dance of the bluespot jawfish because he has not the hunters instinct to approach them stealthily enough.
6] A guy who 'wants' to culture everything in the city based labratoryand ban everthing else leaving the fisherman poorer then ever.
Now to be sure there have been and are scientists who are not like this. However, in the experience of this village of fisherman...they have never seen such scientists that only I claim exists!
Ironic how scientists are seen as the first people of credibility by some and the last people of credibility by others.
Steve
Uhh Steve, maybe your Mexico boys were taking a long siesta when Jerry Allen came through and surveyed all of their fish.
Why do you so much like to denigrate and call people names? Should we start in on the wholesale ornamental fishmongers, who have nothing better to do than throw stones at the rest of the world? :lol:
Why do you so much like to denigrate and call people names? Should we start in on the wholesale ornamental fishmongers, who have nothing better to do than throw stones at the rest of the world? :lol:
Let's end this direction of the thread now.
Push it back to the basic discussion at hand gentlemen.... cortez marine has a valid point, one that thoughtful scientists recognize. However, that is where us scientists need to base our operations... out of the experience and knowledge of the local peoples.
That said... send one of those village fishermen to Bali and see how they fare. Its a point of fact, perhaps that they view scientists in such a way, but its irrelevant to what a scientist is and does.
FYI: A GREAT new book was just released this past December... "Heal the Ocean" by Rod Fujimoto. Read it.
Wade
Push it back to the basic discussion at hand gentlemen.... cortez marine has a valid point, one that thoughtful scientists recognize. However, that is where us scientists need to base our operations... out of the experience and knowledge of the local peoples.
That said... send one of those village fishermen to Bali and see how they fare. Its a point of fact, perhaps that they view scientists in such a way, but its irrelevant to what a scientist is and does.
FYI: A GREAT new book was just released this past December... "Heal the Ocean" by Rod Fujimoto. Read it.
Wade
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
John,
I wrote...
"Mindful and respectful of the contributions of scientists in our daily lives" and...
"To be sure there have been and are scientists who are not like this..."
and I pleaded for them to understand that there are [obvious to me at least] good ones.
Still, the 'perception' of the villagers was the clear point of my post. Not the thing you knee-jerked to.
Steve
PS. Of course they never saw Dr Allen as he 'passed thru.' AND IF THEY DID, THEY MIGHT HAVE ASKED HIM TO HELP THEM. Science is to also serve people is it not? There is a good opportunity right there.
I wrote...
"Mindful and respectful of the contributions of scientists in our daily lives" and...
"To be sure there have been and are scientists who are not like this..."
and I pleaded for them to understand that there are [obvious to me at least] good ones.
Still, the 'perception' of the villagers was the clear point of my post. Not the thing you knee-jerked to.
Steve
PS. Of course they never saw Dr Allen as he 'passed thru.' AND IF THEY DID, THEY MIGHT HAVE ASKED HIM TO HELP THEM. Science is to also serve people is it not? There is a good opportunity right there.
cortez marine":3km86p9c said:
I cannot disagree that science is created by people, for people. But it is not a social salve. Science is about what is, not what ought to be.
Gerald Allen is an Ichthyologist, not a social worker. That is not to say that he has no relationships with indigenous peoples in the areas that he studies.
Wade is trying to keep us from slugging each other outside of the Industry Forum boxing ring. But who are these hydrophobic marine scientists you speak of, anyway?
Actually, in my experience, science exists in this day and age to serve itself. The cycle of grant writing and cut-throat tactics employed by many scientists eliminates the ability to cater to direct needs in many cases. Especially in the academic and private sectors. It almost always requires the government step in and provide money for a given project in order to make it occur.
I think a good scientist should survey the needs and think about his/her end goals initially before a project starts. Once the project is initiated, if it is more of the 'pure science' than the analytical 'whats out there' science, then it should stay hard and fast to that tack. There are, of course, exceptions to that rule.... but generally the scientist needs to isolate factors in order to understand them. In order to isolate factors, it requires a single-mindedness about the ongoing project and that reflects badly on those involved.
Wade
I think a good scientist should survey the needs and think about his/her end goals initially before a project starts. Once the project is initiated, if it is more of the 'pure science' than the analytical 'whats out there' science, then it should stay hard and fast to that tack. There are, of course, exceptions to that rule.... but generally the scientist needs to isolate factors in order to understand them. In order to isolate factors, it requires a single-mindedness about the ongoing project and that reflects badly on those involved.
Wade
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Well said Wade,
Your opinion that scientists are disposed to mirror the times and their culture is well put and explains the disenfranchisement some have with it as a tool to achieve better resource management and environmental protection.
The late Dr. McAllister, an icthyologist from Canada was a mentor of sorts of mine and grew impatient when I expressed the desire that scientists be held to a higher standard then the rest of society.
I thought that...'to he much is given...more is expected.' He said scientists are no more moral or righteous than anyone else and that to set them up on a pedestal was to become disillusioned for sure.
He reminded me that a scientists greatest enemy is often a competing scientist in the same field and so where would my hopes for higher behavior fit in then?
Daniel Janzen, the famed forest ecologist and crusader to save them railed against myopic, self serving scientific dillatauntes and futher declared that a warlike mentality was required for the biodiversity crisis.
He wrote..."Set aside your random research and devote your life to activities that will bring the world to understand that tropical nature is an integral; part of human life. If our generation does not do it, it won't be there for then next."
In Sagan-esqe style, he believed that those who most understand nature should be the ones fighting the hardest to save it as they have a fortification for their motivation beyond the mere politics and self service that the rest of humanity suffer.
Respecting and learning from scientists such as these can lead one into contention more often then the 'dillatauntes' refered to. Its always dangerous to stand up for something...and so easy not to.
Clearly science is an instrument that may serve the cause good or evil. I imagine who ever pays for it can get it...like good legal defense.
Still, there are independants and intellectually honest scientists to counter them, thank God.
Steve
Your opinion that scientists are disposed to mirror the times and their culture is well put and explains the disenfranchisement some have with it as a tool to achieve better resource management and environmental protection.
The late Dr. McAllister, an icthyologist from Canada was a mentor of sorts of mine and grew impatient when I expressed the desire that scientists be held to a higher standard then the rest of society.
I thought that...'to he much is given...more is expected.' He said scientists are no more moral or righteous than anyone else and that to set them up on a pedestal was to become disillusioned for sure.
He reminded me that a scientists greatest enemy is often a competing scientist in the same field and so where would my hopes for higher behavior fit in then?
Daniel Janzen, the famed forest ecologist and crusader to save them railed against myopic, self serving scientific dillatauntes and futher declared that a warlike mentality was required for the biodiversity crisis.
He wrote..."Set aside your random research and devote your life to activities that will bring the world to understand that tropical nature is an integral; part of human life. If our generation does not do it, it won't be there for then next."
In Sagan-esqe style, he believed that those who most understand nature should be the ones fighting the hardest to save it as they have a fortification for their motivation beyond the mere politics and self service that the rest of humanity suffer.
Respecting and learning from scientists such as these can lead one into contention more often then the 'dillatauntes' refered to. Its always dangerous to stand up for something...and so easy not to.
Clearly science is an instrument that may serve the cause good or evil. I imagine who ever pays for it can get it...like good legal defense.
Still, there are independants and intellectually honest scientists to counter them, thank God.
Steve
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
John,
Mexico City is an inland city...with more 'marine biologists' then you can shake a stick at.
They burn, they vomit, they over-charge and they don't do well the the villages where they must often embark from to get to the object of their Discovery channel enhanced affection.
The ocean is fine for them as long as they don't get in it. They do their best 'research' at home when nobodys watching.
Steve
PS. So the premier net collecting village of 25 years has been stopped for lack of cash up front to buy more science...that enables permits to continue working.
City exporters with cash, buy the 'science' to get permits.
Not the science we have all come to love and respect ...but it passes for science down there.
PS # 2....Ornamental fish wholesalers rarely speak. A trade based on an illegitamate foundation ie. unsustainable cyanide collecting produces few willing to hold forth in public. I represent none in my industry hardly at all.
But by all means...debate is good for science and the search for truth and understanding.
Mexico City is an inland city...with more 'marine biologists' then you can shake a stick at.
They burn, they vomit, they over-charge and they don't do well the the villages where they must often embark from to get to the object of their Discovery channel enhanced affection.
The ocean is fine for them as long as they don't get in it. They do their best 'research' at home when nobodys watching.
Steve
PS. So the premier net collecting village of 25 years has been stopped for lack of cash up front to buy more science...that enables permits to continue working.
City exporters with cash, buy the 'science' to get permits.
Not the science we have all come to love and respect ...but it passes for science down there.
PS # 2....Ornamental fish wholesalers rarely speak. A trade based on an illegitamate foundation ie. unsustainable cyanide collecting produces few willing to hold forth in public. I represent none in my industry hardly at all.
But by all means...debate is good for science and the search for truth and understanding.
Well! The three of you have done a great job of stopping the inane arguments that were previously occurring just above. 
<hope you don't mind a bit of fun on my part>
Brandon, you're comparing apples to oranges, and not at all considering the fact that science in the field is often observation and measurements, not actual manipulation of parameters that hobbyists must perform in order to keep the boxes of water. But, maybe you missed some of those previous posts.
<hope you don't mind a bit of fun on my part>
Brandon, you're comparing apples to oranges, and not at all considering the fact that science in the field is often observation and measurements, not actual manipulation of parameters that hobbyists must perform in order to keep the boxes of water. But, maybe you missed some of those previous posts.
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