Whos removed their sandbeds?

[SpecialK]

I have seen starboard/glued sand bottom here is a link http://www.michiganreefers.com/forums/s ... eadid=6874


Kaye

 

[Anonymous]

Some of the current thinking is that DSB's like the ones Dr Ron suggests that they are lagoonal in nature, and that around reefs, they have very little in the way of wormy critters in them. Also, that the critters are not necessary for denitrification. So, vacuuming a sandbed won't hurt the denitrification, and you prolly don't need the critters anyway.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm in the process of removing my 4 inch dsb from my 120. It has become simply a "dsb" and not a live sand bed. I don't want to expend the effort in maintaining a "live sand bed", and as stated by another member, will go with about an inch or so just for looks. Even the shallow beds will harbor critters, although denitrification won't occur, unless by other means.

 

[Anonymous]

Some of the current thinking is that DSB's like the ones Dr Ron suggests that they are lagoonal in nature, and that around reefs, they have very little in the way of wormy critters in them. Also, that the critters are not necessary for denitrification. So, vacuuming a sandbed won't hurt the denitrification, and you prolly don't need the critters anyway.

Could you give a link or some basis for the above statement? Worms are just one of many life forms in a DSB.

 

[Anonymous]

I will be using starboard for my bottom for now. I want to protect the glass in case of a rock slide.

It should cover up with coraline in a short time but after I ge trid of the hair algae disaster I may place a 1/2 layer of live sand for looks.
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[Unarce]

Even the shallow beds will harbor critters, although denitrification won't occur, unless by other means.

You'll still get denitrification (please read my template on the first page). If you can keep the sand from blowing around with some larger grains, you'll be fine. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Some of the current thinking is that DSB's like the ones Dr Ron suggests that they are lagoonal in nature, and that around reefs, they have very little in the way of wormy critters in them. Also, that the critters are not necessary for denitrification. So, vacuuming a sandbed won't hurt the denitrification, and you prolly don't need the critters anyway.

Could you give a link or some basis for the above statement? Worms are just one of many life forms in a DSB.

There are a couple of threads about it on RC and TRT. IIRC, worms are one of the many lifeforms in lagoonal sandbeds and in tanks, but not necessarily around reefs.

 

[Anonymous]

Some of the current thinking is that DSB's like the ones Dr Ron suggests that they are lagoonal in nature, and that around reefs, they have very little in the way of wormy critters in them. Also, that the critters are not necessary for denitrification. So, vacuuming a sandbed won't hurt the denitrification, and you prolly don't need the critters anyway.

Could you give a link or some basis for the above statement? Worms are just one of many life forms in a DSB.

There are a couple of threads about it on RC and TRT. IIRC, worms are one of the many lifeforms in lagoonal sandbeds and in tanks, but not necessarily around reefs.

Have you ever done a fauna survey of a DSB? There is a lot more life than just a few worms.
I guess my real question is how many people who had a DSB every set it up properly and maintained it? If it was poorly operated, removing it would possibly improve a tank. It doesn't mean the DSB method is at fault, just the hobbiest. I don't know how many times I have read that you can seed a DSB just by putting Live Rock on it.

 

[DonJasper]

Even the shallow beds will harbor critters, although denitrification won't occur, unless by other means.

You'll still get denitrification (please read my template on the first page). If you can keep the sand from blowing around with some larger grains, you'll be fine. :wink:

jdubbya is correct. A shallow sand bed won't do anything but produce nitrates (unless you keep it clean by vacuuming out the crud before it breaks down). The nitrate eating microbes need an oxygen free environment to survive: usually at the bottom of 4 inches of sand, or some minimal areas deep inside Live Rock (not the homemade stuff), or towards the end of a coil denitrator. Don't blame me for this - I didn't design the nitrate eaters.

So if you're not going to take pains to stop producing nitrates (by vacuuming out the crud, or bare bottoming them out) - then you're going to have to have a plan to deal with them. Allowing plant growth to tie down nitrates is fine. As you know having snails graze hair algae just recycles the nitrates and doesn't remove them from the tank. Yes I'm a recovering plant bigot - I don't like hair algae. I'm taking Saltwater Plant Diversity classes, but they haven’t made much of a dent I'm afraid. It's not the hair algae’s fault - it's just trying to make a living like the rest of us. I should really give it a break…

 

[DaisyPolyp]

I guess my real question is how many people who had a DSB every set it up properly and maintained it? If it was poorly operated, removing it would possibly improve a tank. It doesn't mean the DSB method is at fault, just the hobbiest. I don't know how many times I have read that you can seed a DSB just by putting Live Rock on it.

I really have to agree with this statement. IMO there are several methods of setting up the bottom of a reef tank that will be succesful as part of a larger ecomanagement program, but the benefits of a true DSB are many and proved. A DSB does present a huge challenge for the reefkeeper in terms of proper setup, but if done correctly they can be a major factor in ensuring a healthy, stable environment for your tank inhabitants. I personally have a 5" DSB made of dual-layer substrate on my 75G, and I have just set up a monaco style DSB for my 35G.

However, in many ways more reefkeepers may be more succesfull with the style proposed by Reefnutz as it is more forgiving and easier to setup.

 

[Unarce]

The nitrate eating microbes need an oxygen free environment to survive: usually at the bottom of 4 inches of sand, or some minimal areas deep inside Live Rock (not the homemade stuff), or towards the end of a coil denitrator. Don't blame me for this - I didn't design the nitrate eaters.

A very common misconception by hobbyists. Often assuming that denitrification only occurs in oxygen-depleted areas. Nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria can function side by side in a 1" sand bed.

 

[Anonymous]

Some of the current thinking is that DSB's like the ones Dr Ron suggests that they are lagoonal in nature, and that around reefs, they have very little in the way of wormy critters in them. Also, that the critters are not necessary for denitrification. So, vacuuming a sandbed won't hurt the denitrification, and you prolly don't need the critters anyway.

Could you give a link or some basis for the above statement? Worms are just one of many life forms in a DSB.

There are a couple of threads about it on RC and TRT. IIRC, worms are one of the many lifeforms in lagoonal sandbeds and in tanks, but not necessarily around reefs.

Have you ever done a fauna survey of a DSB? There is a lot more life than just a few worms.

Not sure why this question is for me. I said that worms are one of the many lifeforms found in DSB's.

I guess my real question is how many people who had a DSB every set it up properly and maintained it? If it was poorly operated, removing it would possibly improve a tank. It doesn't mean the DSB method is at fault, just the hobbiest. I don't know how many times I have read that you can seed a DSB just by putting Live Rock on it.

I have never argued that DSB's dont work. I do question the need for sandbed fauna that has become the popular must have for sandbeds.

 

[Unarce]

I do question the need for sandbed fauna that has become the popular must have for sandbeds.

Not so much for the sand bed itself (although it helps to keep it stirred). I think more experienced hobbyists put a great value in the offspring of fauna becoming food for inverts and fish.

DSB's can work if properly maintained and are necessary for certain application (i.e. jawfish), but why bother if it isn't necessary when it will nitrify/denitrify just as well at 1" as it would at 6". Less hassle, more room, and not nearly as unsightly. Not to mention avoiding major algae problems.

 

[Anonymous]

IIRC, there is no data to back up the idea that the spawning of SB critters becomes any significant amount of food for inverts and fish. I would love to read some, got any?

 

[Unarce]

IIRC, there is no data to back up the idea that the spawning of SB critters becomes any significant amount of food for inverts and fish. I would love to read some, got any?

Sorry, wish I did. It was information I got in a conversation with Dennis at DT's among others shared from Dr. Shimek. However significant or insignificant the amount may be in a closed system, it's still a way that corals feed in the wild.

 

[DaisyPolyp]

I do question the need for sandbed fauna that has become the popular must have for sandbeds.

Not so much for the sand bed itself (although it helps to keep it stirred). I think more experienced hobbyists put a great value in the offspring of fauna becoming food for inverts and fish.

DSB's can work if properly maintained and are necessary for certain application (i.e. jawfish), but why bother if it isn't necessary when it will nitrify/denitrify just as well at 1" as it would at 6". Less hassle, more room, and not nearly as unsightly. Not to mention avoiding major algae problems.

...I think that sums up the scope of the argument nicely.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry, wish I did. It was information I got in a conversation with Dennis at DT's among others shared from Dr. Shimek. However significant or insignificant the amount may be in a closed system, it's still a way that corals feed in the wild.

I find much information from Dr Ron to be suspect because I have never heard nor seen him cite any resources for his recommendations about DSB's. When pressed he says that the information is out there but refuses to point anyone to it.

If the corals do feed from the planktonic offspring of sand bed critters, if the amounts of such animals are negligible in our tanks, does it really make sense to be spending money on those critters and recharge kits?

 

[Unarce]

does it really make sense to be spending money on those critters and recharge kits?

One of the points made in that conversation was that the larvae are removed by skimmers. In my case, I don't skim my tanks and have an abundant population of critters which may be why I've never had to buy a detrivore or recharge kit.

 

[Anonymous]

does it really make sense to be spending money on those critters and recharge kits?

One of the points made in that conversation was that the larvae are removed by skimmers. In my case, I don't skim my tanks and have an abundant population of critters which may be why I've never had to buy a detrivore or recharge kit.

I skim like mad and have never needed a recharge kit for my sand bed. Plenty of critters.

I still would like to see some data on how many larvae are in a tank and how many are supposed to be by skimming. And doesn't Ron recommend recharge kits just for diversity's sake?

 

[Ben1]

I have set up many sand beds by Dr. Rons grain size recommendations and seeded them from other reefers tanks. Along with the common bristle worms, speghetti worms and pods I have had lots of mini brittle stars come and go so believe I had a bed not lacking in critters. In all the beds when I had a reson to break them down (moving, ect) they were always packed with detritus. Alls I know is this can't be good, not all of it can be processed.

In the end I am only after a sucessfull SPS system with a stable CA/ALk level, no Phosphate and no Nitrate. If alls I need a sandbed for is to reduce the nitrates and this happens just as much in a 1" bed as a 6" bed then why not use a 1" bed? Seems to me a 1" bed would be easier to stir the detritus out of and use critters to stir. Less of a time bomb effect. I will keep removing sand from my 150 until the 1" range is hit.