Established tank is slowly dying. Help!

[cardinalfanrc]

I have a 3 year old established reef tank that has been slowly looking worse over the last month. Here's the details: The tank is a 75 gallon reef with smallish fish load, lps, polyps, 100# live rock, and a plenum. There is a 20 gallon sump and 10 gallon refuge, Red Sea Berlin skimmer and a fluidized bed. Top off with RO/DI and Kalk (Mrs Wage's).
Over the last 1-2 months things have gone downhill. Most noticeably, all of my zoanthids (once thriving) now barely open. My shrooms are shriveling (except ricordea) and my frogspawn doesn't open much. In addition red slime algae is blooming. Leathers are fine, fish are fine, inverts are fine. Tanks previously has been thriving for two years.
The catch is that the parameter are all normal!! Ammonia/Nirite (Salifert) are 0. Nitrate is 5-7 with Salifert (not sure what it used to be because I never needed to test). Ca is 400 and alk about 3 (Salifert). Ph ranges 8.1 to 8.3 (pinpoint monitor). Salinity 1.023. Temp stabel at 78. Mulitple 20% water changes (Scripps institue of Oceanography sea water) have not helped. Running carbon has not helped. Changing cartidges in RO/DI unit has not helped (RO/DI water tests all zeros). I have not tested for phosphate.
Please help. I have no idea what is wrong. Is this old tank syndrome? I'm frustrated enough that I want to sell my tank . . .
-ryan

 

[tangir1]

Since your saltwater is free, maybe another 20% water change is in order... test Scripps' water for nitrate before using... I try to keep my nitrate relatively low... less than 1ppm if possible.

Oh, BTW, welcome to RDO!

 

[Anonymous]

First thing that strikes me is you omitted lighting.
What kind and how old ?
Second SG is a tad low.
Third what kind of circulation.

Regards,
David Mohr

 

[Anonymous]

I am guessing that something toxic got into the tank and shocked your livestock or your bulbs need changing. How are the fish doing? I would do another water change,purchase new bulbs and then leave it alone. Run carbon too. Goodluck!

 

[Anonymous]

Nitrate is 5-7 with Salifert

Nitrates should be 0 or close to it.

Running carbon at all?

Was there a temp spike recently?
_________________
og kush marijuana

 

[Anonymous]

I would start with some HUGE water changes, at least 75%, a few days in a row. The water from Scripps is very good, and I believe that they've filtered it pretty well, too. Of course, testing prior to changing will NOT hurt. Or, contact them about their test results, I wouldn't be surprised if they have a fairly well-equipped lab on site.

Don't worry about salinity, don't worry about nitrate, a level of 5-7 is fine.

Lighting is in question, as pointed out earlier, but that nitrate level is very unlikely to be the culprit. The carbon may be helpful, but not as helpful as some hugemongous w/c's will be.

 

[cardinalfanrc]

Thanks for the replies. I omitted a few details in an attempt to shorten the initial post a little. I though of the lighting also. I run 4 x 65 watt PC's with 2 x 10,000 and 2 x actinic. I changed the bulbs 3-4 months ago. Not sure if I mentioned in the first post, but I have done approx two 20% water changes a week for the last month. This has not seemed to make any difference. As far as the nitrates I know that 5 ppm is not ideal but my impression is that this level of nitrates is not high enough to make my zoanthids and red shrooms start withering. In addition I don't think this level of nitrates is new. I haven't really tested for the last two years because the tank was doing well. I would occasionally test with a Red Sea nitrate kit and the level was zero. I'm aware that this is probably not an accurate piece of data. The only suggestion that makes sense to me is something toxic. This is why I have been running carbon (I usually don't) but this also has not helped. Maybe there is an ongoing toxic contamination, but I don't know what this would be since I haven't changed my routine.
Any other thoughts? (please)

 

[cardinalfanrc]

Oh yea, circulations is with mag 12 return from the sump split into two returns with each return split with loc-line tubing stuff. In addition there's are 4-5 rios in the tank. Overall circulation is pretty darn good with quite a bit of movement and no obvious dead spots. And again, it has changed over the two years that the tank has been doing well. Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

We're limited by a lot of things, included what we can actually test for. I still strongly recommend some seriously huge water changes, and don't feel that level of nitrate is harmful. You might also want to consider using some other/new test kits just to be sure of readings.

 

[Big R]

Fluildized bed???? Personally I'd ditch that. I'd also suggest some big water changes. Maybe try laying off the Kalk for a while. Wouldn't hurt to run some phosphate media too.

R

 

[Anonymous]

I'd raise your alkalinity. I keep mine between 6-8 not 3. My softies never look very good if it's lower than 4.

 

[Anonymous]

Well now that we can rule out lighting my guess ( and I don't want to open a whole can of worms here ) is a problem with your plenum. If I recall and it's been years, one of the problems that was seen in plenums was a constant low level of PO4(phospate). This led to diatoms, cyano and general decline of the health of corals. My other thought was a release of H2S (hydrogen sulfide) but this would affect your other critters and you would probably notice a slight rotten egg smell.
For the heck of it check your phosphate levels and let us know what comes up.

Regards,
David Mohr

 

[cardinalfanrc]

Thanks again for the help. I have definitely considered the possibility of long-term accumulation of detritus in the plenum and fluidized bed. However, I was under the impression that if this was the problem then I should be seeing high levels of nitrates. I can't reason out a scenario where the plenum and fluidized bed are at fault but the nitrate is still low. Is it possible to just have elevated phosphate? I will check phophate tomorrow (I don't have my own kit at home).

I'm intrigued by the hydrogen sulfate suggestion. Do you have any more info on this. Because it really does seem to be something that is directly toxic in the tank. The fish and inverts are doing fine though. And the leathers and candy cane are doing great.

As for using a different kit - Salifert is uniformly considered the best kit on the market so I'm not sure switching to another one would help.

As for the alk - I've read Randy Holmes-Farley's articles on acid/base and ph/alk in the reef tank and I see know reason my alk and ca levels (always should be interpretated in realtion to one another) would be a problem. And again they are not different that before.

I guess I can try a massive water change. I always thought that this was generally too stressful to the inhabitants but then again since the tank is dwindling, I'm not sure what there is to loose. I'll just have to figure out the logistics for a 50 gallon H20 change. Any other suggestions?

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks again for the help. I have definitely considered the possibility of long-term accumulation of detritus in the plenum and fluidized bed. However, I was under the impression that if this was the problem then I should be seeing high levels of nitrates. I can't reason out a scenario where the plenum and fluidized bed are at fault but the nitrate is still low. Is it possible to just have elevated phosphate? I will check phophate tomorrow (I don't have my own kit at home).

No from what I recall Nitrates were not a problem but there was the constant low level of phospate.

I'm intrigued by the hydrogen sulfate suggestion. Do you have any more info on this. Because it really does seem to be something that is directly toxic in the tank. The fish and inverts are doing fine though. And the leathers and candy cane are doing great.

When I first read your question and saw plenum this rang a bell but sometimes the subject of plenums sets off a firestorm.;-(
My degree is not in chemistry and like I say it's been awhile since plenums have been discussed. The problem is that sometimes the bacteria can't keep pace with the detritus causing a buildup of H2S and since you're having a problem with redslime algae this is limiting the bacterias ability to process the detritus ( sorta like a vicious circle ). One of the reasons I asked about your circulation was that if it's poor it would not be able to disperse the H2S causing a buildup. But like I said this would affect all your critters not just corals.

As for using a different kit - Salifert is uniformly considered the best kit on the market so I'm not sure switching to another one would help.

As for the alk - I've read Randy Holmes-Farley's articles on acid/base and ph/alk in the reef tank and I see know reason my alk and ca levels (always should be interpretated in realtion to one another) would be a problem. And again they are not different that before.

Like I said I'm not a Chemist so I'll let others answer that.

I guess I can try a massive water change. I always thought that this was generally too stressful to the inhabitants but then again since the tank is dwindling, I'm not sure what there is to loose. I'll just have to figure out the logistics for a 50 gallon H20 change.


As long as your new water is the same params as your tank ( temp, pH, SG, etc. think of it as a quick transfusion.

Regards,
David Mohr

 

[cardinalfanrc]

David,

Thanks. In the case that the problem is either phosphate or H2S from an old plenum, what should I do? I can definitely run a phosphate binder but what about the H2S. And and suggestions on a long term solution. Can I take out the plenum without completely crashing the tank? Thanks.

 

[cardinalfanrc]

I tested the phosphate today and it is 0.4 ppm. While not zero this should be the cause of my problems. I bought a poly-filter which should remove phosphates and also some other toxins. A friend suggested that a powerhead with an exposed wire could be leaching copper into the water. This would result in a color change with the polyfilter so I'll know soon. To summarize I have a slowly crashing tank with completely normal water parameters. There is something in the water but I just don't know what it is, how to test for it, or how to fix it. Any other suggestions.

 

[cardinalfanrc]

I tested the phosphate today and it is 0.4 ppm. While not zero this should be the cause of my problems. I bought a poly-filter which should remove phosphates and also some other toxins. A friend suggested that a powerhead with an exposed wire could be leaching copper into the water. This would result in a color change with the polyfilter so I'll know soon. To summarize I have a slowly crashing tank with completely normal water parameters. There is something in the water but I just don't know what it is, how to test for it, or how to fix it. Any other suggestions.

 

[cardinalfanrc]

Oops. I meant to say that the phosphates should NOT be the cause of my problems.