Yeah, I still got it.

[Anonymous]

Dude, wasn't it Jesus who was always turning the other cheek? I'd say He's a catcher, for sure.

:lol:

 

[Anonymous]

I'm surprised more of you aren't questioning this.

Bare tank. Clean, sterile seawater. Wet skimming. UV. Strong lighting. No liverock. Add only SPS type corals that we know do perfectly well on bacteria and light. Nothing else. Will you have to feed?

corals will get their carbohydrates from zoox and culturing bacteria. However, they don't just need carbon. They need nitrogen and phosphorous as well. Their cells need it, their zoox need it, and the bacteria they eat need it. We know that the bacteria can pull the nitrogen out of thin air. Where does the phosphate they need come from? Will it have to come from added food?

Okay, let's see; I'll go out on a limb at risk of looking ill-informed. Remember though that I'm a geologist; not a geochemist, environmental chemist or the like.

However, I'm pretty certain that you are loath to actually add any nutrients to the vat if you can help it.

Carbon and nitrogen can appear in the vat from thin air, as it were, from bacterial processes, as you stated earlier.

As I recall from my geochem classes phosphine gas figures into the earth's phosphorous cycle, although probably at levels too low to provide enough P for happy coral growth. Still phosphine could supply a bit of P to the soup, so to speak. Residue soaps on people's hands/arms could also add some P to the vat during routine maintenace of the system.

But I think I know where you are going with this. I've looked at too many MSDS's over the years not to realize that phosphorous plays a major role as a plasticiser in PVC and epoxy resins, which I believe are holding your vat together and used for piping the system. It is dang difficult to keep things from leaching out over time.

Are you saying that you don't plan on having to add nutrients from the outside to the system?

Interesting, have you done this before?

-Lee

Oh, do I get a star on my forhead or sent to the library to do more reading based on my answer? :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Dr. Ron/Dr. Addey advocate heavy feeding, macroalgae export and DSBs. Galleon advocates no feeding, no macroalgae, no DSB.

I think I'm seeing the rise of the anti-Ron, or is that the anti-Walt? Either way, it looks like the end of world is near! 8O

 

[Anonymous]

However, I'm pretty certain that you are loath to actually add any nutrients to the vat if you can help it.

Well, look at how much living tissue I'm actually keeping. The coral is just a tiny veneer of a double cell layer over that skeleton. And out of C, N and P, P is the nutrient that's generally needed in the lowest quantity, especially by the coral symbiont (Redfield Ratio).

Carbon and nitrogen can appear in the vat from thin air, as it were, from bacterial processes, as you stated earlier.

*nods*

But I think I know where you are going with this. I've looked at too many MSDS's over the years not to realize that phosphorous plays a major role as a plasticiser in PVC and epoxy resins, which I believe are holding your vat together and used for piping the system. It is dang difficult to keep things from leaching out over time.

You nailed it!
And the tank is fiberglass to boot! Think I'll ever need to add phosphate?

Are you saying that you don't plan on having to add nutrients from the outside to the system?

Yep.

Interesting, have you done this before?

Me and others

Oh, do I get a star on my forhead or sent to the library to do more reading based on my answer? :wink:

Actually, I didn't expect anyone to get it, as it's something that's pretty obscure, so congrats.

 

[Anonymous]

Dr. Ron/Dr. Addey advocate heavy feeding, macroalgae export and DSBs. Galleon advocates no feeding, no macroalgae, no DSB.

Everything depends on the needs of the animal you're keeping and if/how they are being provided.

I think I'm seeing the rise of the anti-Ron, or is that the anti-Walt? Either way, it looks like the end of world is near! 8O

:lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Glad to hear that you and Jerel aren't actually the same person, LOL. However I'd like to see a pic of you and Jerel side by side to prove it to me for certain. :lol: I'm still laughing about the big broo-ha-ha the 'Bomber' starboard tank stirred up.

Thanks,
-Lee

I am the much better looking of the two.

I still think BB is a new fad. LOL I probably have enough P in one eductor to last a lifetime. At least Redfield tells me so.

 

[Anonymous]

I am the much better looking of the two.

Yeah, but I've got all the talent.

 

[Anonymous]

You do build a mean skimmer, I'll give you that. LOL

 

[Anonymous]

I still think BB is a new fad. LOL I probably have enough P in one eductor to last a lifetime. At least Redfield tells me so.

(blinks repeatedly)

If I have more coffee, will that statement begin to make sense to me?

 

[Anonymous]

No, you'll just end up full of P yourself. . .

B

 

[Anonymous]

I still think BB is a new fad. LOL I probably have enough P in one eductor to last a lifetime. At least Redfield tells me so.

(blinks repeatedly)

If I have more coffee, will that statement begin to make sense to me?

Eductor is made of materials that have phosphorous containing plasticizers. That stuff leaches out and provides P to the system. In other words, there is no way to run a sterile, clean system when plastic is involved. Cyanobacteria grows like crazy in clean lab (plastic) carboys filled with ultrapure water.

 

[Anonymous]

I still think BB is a new fad. LOL I probably have enough P in one eductor to last a lifetime. At least Redfield tells me so.

(blinks repeatedly)

If I have more coffee, will that statement begin to make sense to me?

Eductor is made of materials that have phosphorous containing plasticizers. That stuff leaches out and provides P to the system. In other words, there is no way to run a sterile, clean system when plastic is involved. Cyanobacteria grows like crazy in clean lab (plastic) carboys filled with ultrapure water.

:lol: Having had much more coffee since I lasted logged on I grok that, I mean I think I unnerstan'.

So, since all PVC/Plastic leaches P back into our systems through the plumbing itself, there really isn't any way to "eliminate" totally excess P, even by running a Bomber-type low nutrient/high skimmed system?

Or, is the amount leeched back into the closed loop via the components insignificant, compared to the usual "organic" input?

 

[Anonymous]

Glad to hear that you and Jerel aren't actually the same person, LOL. However I'd like to see a pic of you and Jerel side by side to prove it to me for certain. :lol: I'm still laughing about the big broo-ha-ha the 'Bomber' starboard tank stirred up.

Thanks,
-Lee

I am the much better looking of the two.

I still think BB is a new fad. LOL I probably have enough P in one eductor to last a lifetime. At least Redfield tells me so.

Ahhhh, so the real slim shady did stand up. :wink:

I assume that you are talking about the Redfield ratio, C: N: P = 106: 16: 1, talking, not the actual Alfred Redfield?

Oh and thanks for creating a new fad that doesn't involve a lot of change over for us old BB Berlin Method folks!

 

[Anonymous]

Think I'll ever need to add phosphate?

You'll have to tell me, on that one. I'd think that any significant amount of coral growth would probably need more P than leaching could supply longterm.

Also I can't take all the credit for my answer, Galleon. I never would have considered the P in plasticizers being a significant player in our tanks until a couple of years ago when I went to an auction sale at a closed bioassay lab. I was going to bid on a nice lab-grade carboy when I noticed that it had a bacterial film in it. I asked the owner what he had stored in the carboy to cause the growth. The owner said that the carboy would be safe for aquarium use as it had only held DI/RO water. He went on to speculate that the plasticizers in the plastic must have supplied enough nutrients to allow bacterial growth. He went on to say that it is very difficult not to get some bacterial growth even with clean water in clean plastic if it is stored for very long in daylight.

 

[Anonymous]

Think I'll ever need to add phosphate?

You'll have to tell me, on that one. I'd think that any significant amount of coral growth would probably need more P than leaching could supply longterm.

Also I can't take all the credit for my answer, Galleon. I never would have considered the P in plasticizers being a significant player in our tanks until a couple of years ago when I went to an auction sale at a closed bioassay lab. I was going to bid on a nice lab-grade carboy when I noticed that it had a bacterial film in it. I asked the owner what he had stored in the carboy to cause the growth. The owner said that the carboy would be safe for aquarium use as it had only held DI/RO water. He went on to speculate that the plasticizers in the plastic must have supplied enough nutrients to allow bacterial growth. He went on to say that it is very difficult not to get some bacterial growth even with clean water in clean plastic if it is stored for very long in daylight.

You just answered your own question. Think about it. Think the large bacterial film really contains any more cells or mass than that thin little layer of tissue on a coral skeleton? I'll give you a hint: It doesn't. It's enough P for a lifetime.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh and thanks for creating a new fad that doesn't involve a lot of change over for us old BB Berlin Method folks!

Someone has to look out for us old folks. Change is not easy at our age.

Chris, what were you saying about the EPA and PVC pipe.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh and thanks for creating a new fad that doesn't involve a lot of change over for us old BB Berlin Method folks!

Someone has to look out for us old folks. Change is not easy at our age.

Chris, what were you saying about the EPA and PVC pipe.

EPA says PVC very dangerous because of manufacturing process and plasticizers. We're all gonna die of cancer. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Bump so Len can move.

 

[Anonymous]

Bump for the halibut.

Tank got a Diploria labyrinthiformis frag today. No pics though because somebody ran down the batteries in the lab's digicam.

 

[Anonymous]

Nice Tank. Where are the muffins?

How many trips to Lowe's did that rig require? LOL. Gotta love the DIY PVC pipe art. Done a few 4'ers myself. Love the smell of pvc solvent in the morning. :-D

BMP