What should I do now? I pulled a real bone head stunt!!

[Anonymous]

Perhaps my head knows it's wrong, but my heart says "Do it! Do it!"

 

[Anonymous]

Perhaps my head knows it's wrong, but my heart says "Do it! Do it!"

Just say "no" Chrispy...it's not like giving up beer or anything important!

 

[Anonymous]

Good point!

 

[Anonymous]

Wow. This really is way different than the sump.

:roll:

 

[Len]

starr, whatever you do, do it slowly. Don't simply drop the fish into a new environment without slow acclimation. Going from a pH of 7.3 to 8.2 is a big change that could result in further shock and stress. Slowly exchange water until the equalize.

 

[Anonymous]

Wow. This really is way different than the sump.

:roll:

 

[starfish 1]

Sorry to hear your flame angel did not make it. I never have used a Q Tank and never will never lost a fish yet I also never have any fish very long in a bag when I see he is getting stressed, in the tank they go.

 

[Anonymous]

starr, whatever you do, do it slowly. Don't simply drop the fish into a new environment without slow acclimation. Going from a pH of 7.3 to 8.2 is a big change that could result in further shock and stress. Slowly exchange water until the equalize.

There is an extremely important point that I sort of made implicitly but maybe should have stated more clearly. She said her fish has died, but the point is still worth making...

1. The reason the pH dropped is because the fish exhales CO2, which, when dissolved in water, becomes carbonic acid. The more CO2 the fish produces, the more the pH will dip (up to the point of saturation).

2. The fish also excretes ammonia. This is the primary product of fish urine. Ammonia is extremely toxic to fish. However, it exists in equilibrium with ammonium hydroxide. When the pH is lowered by the presence of carbon dioxide, it has the beneficial effect of shifting the equilibrium between ammonia and ammonium ion in the direction of the less harmful ammonium ion.

3. So if you raise the pH suddenly, this can cause a sudden increase in the concentration of dissolved ammonia gas, and kill your fish.

The same thing often happens in a shipping bag, which is the primary reason I advocate netting the fish and getting it out.

 

[Anonymous]

<snip for space.
1. The reason the pH dropped is because the fish exhales CO2, which, when dissolved in water, becomes carbonic acid. The more CO2 the fish produces, the more the pH will dip (up to the point of saturation).

The same thing often happens in a shipping bag, which is the primary reason I advocate netting the fish and getting it out.

That's why one shouldn't o put an airstone into a shipping bag, it simply makes the whole ammonia thing worse...but a drip acclimation at a decent rate helps too

 

[Anonymous]

No, the drip acclimation is also bad, because it raises the pH and that increases the ammonia concentration.

 

[Anonymous]

No, the drip acclimation is also bad, because it raises the pH and that increases the ammonia concentration.

But at the same time you're diluting the ammonia down, and slowly matching salinity, pH, and temp. You could be getting a fish from a salinity of 1.015 for all you know. Osmotic shock can kill, but I doubt a few minutes of exposure to ammonia will. Much better to drip it IMHO.

 

[Anonymous]

I would think a blast of ammonia would be more harmful than an increase in salinity. If osmotic shock is so harmful, why do people do freshwater dips?

 

[Anonymous]

I would think a blast of ammonia would be more harmful than an increase in salinity.

I think you are probably right, but you are not talking about equivalent things. One would last for a few minutes while the other would be a permanent change. Kind of like stepping into a sauna vs. living in it. Make sense? FWIW it's generally recognized that an increase in salinity need to be made much more slowly than a decrease.

If osmotic shock is so harmful, why do people do freshwater dips?

I should have been more specific 5 years ago. A quick increase in salinity that is permanent can be harmful. A quick decrease in salinity is not generally a problem at all, and some people just do a 50% water change with FW without problems.

FWIW I agree with the gist of your argument about acclimation. I think if you can match the temp and salinity of the tank to the bag beforehand it is fine to just dump (not net) the fish directly into the tank.

 

[Anonymous]

just dump (not net) the fish directly into the tank.

Oh, and to elaborate further--no, I don't mean dump the shipping water in! I just add a bunch of tank water to the bag, decant to drain, repeat, decant again, and then dump the fish+water into the tank. 95%+ of the shipping water is removed by doing this.