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I pick up a few local Atlantic hermits for my tanks, mostly small pea size. I have taken a few to my lfs as trade ins. Last week they asked if I could get 150. So today, as my wife and girls headed to church, I headed to the beach and picked up 186 small hermits. I cherry picked for nice shells. Brought them home fresh water dipped them, and cleaned the shells with a soft rag. My question is, what would be a fair price for bulk hermits? It will be retail store credit. These little crabs have never caused a problem in my tanks. Once they grow a little I toss them off the dock and pick up a few more for my tanks. Thanks, Andy
 

rayjay

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There may be laws against returning them to the ocean after having been in your tank.
Just think of the possible damage that might happen if they were to transfer a disease from your tank to the ocean. It may be a long shot, but it most definitely could happen.
 
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rayjay":1u7m6wgy said:
There may be laws against returning them to the ocean after having been in your tank.
Just think of the possible damage that might happen if they were to transfer a disease from your tank to the ocean. It may be a long shot, but it most definitely could happen.



I've seen this asserted time and time again over the years, and it always floors me. You are NOT going to make the ocean sick from your little reef tank people.
Let's put that one to bed.

Jim
 
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I do not know if I have ever seen a sick hermit. I think they are about the most hardy things we may have in our tanks.
 

rayjay

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I have never seen any proof that it can't happen. I can't honestly say where, or even for sure that I've read about, but I have it in my mind that I've read about some marine biologists having concerns about spreading diseases from tanks to oceans.
The dumped macro algae in areas where there is no control for it have overrun those area's now, as I've read a few times.
The people dumping that macro could hardly have forseen that at the time.
As for not seeing a sick hermit, what does that look like?
I don't have to get sick to pass something on to my wife, that I picked up somewhere else.
I'm the first to say the odds are slim, but can we afford to take that chance?
 
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Good point about the macros, but that's an invasive species issue.
 
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rayjay":3a9xc8si said:
As for not seeing a sick hermit, what does that look like?

Like I said above, "I don't think I have ever seen a sick hermit".

I live in a port city, Charleston, SC. Think of all the ships that come here every day from all over the world, with their bottoms covered in barnacles, the same thing can be said for whales, I would think if crust. were going to pose a problem these things would be more of a concern than a few local hermits being released back into the Atlantic. I can app. your concern. I just think it is unfounded. If the ocean is that weak it would have died out long ago.
 

rayjay

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I live surrounded by the great lakes, which are in a loosing battle against non native species brought in by tankers from other continents.
It may not be the same as a disease, but the principle could apply here as well.
We humans are continually picking up sickness from our entry into bodies of water, why can't the waters be contaminated by an addition that it might not be capable of neutralizing?
As I understand things, disease causing organisms are much more resiliant and much more adaptable to conditions than any of the vertibrates or invertibrates, so why could we not expect the possibility (however slight) of disease transfer from tank to ocean?
 
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rayjay":1vzkfe87 said:
I live surrounded by the great lakes, which are in a loosing battle against non native species brought in by tankers from other continents.
It may not be the same as a disease, but the principle could apply here as well.
We humans are continually picking up sickness from our entry into bodies of water, why can't the waters be contaminated by an addition that it might not be capable of neutralizing?
As I understand things, disease causing organisms are much more resiliant and much more adaptable to conditions than any of the vertibrates or invertibrates, so why could we not expect the possibility (however slight) of disease transfer from tank to ocean?

VERY slight Ray. There is a possibility that you will be plinked in the head and killed by a small meteorite in the next 60 seconds too. However, you seem like a rather nice fella, so I hope that doesn't happen. :wink:

Cheers
Jim
 

npaden

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I've seen this asserted time and time again over the years, and it always floors me. You are NOT going to make the ocean sick from your little reef tank people.
Let's put that one to bed.

Please read a few articles on the effect of the introduction of non-native species into an eco-system. Whirling disease in trout has devastated many streams in the West because someone decided to use non-native bait fish. The bait fish had some bacteria that didn't affect it but that the trout still have not developed a resistance to.

If the hermits have been in a tank with anything but Atlantic species you have the potential to introduce bacteria or diseases that the Atlantic species of fish or coral may not have an immunity to.

Here are a few articles you might find interesting:

Abstract: Whose responsibility is it to ensure the economic and ecological integrity of the nation in response to multi-billion dollar threats posed by harmful nonnative species?

http://www.ncseonline.org/NLE/CRSreport ... N=31916867

non-native species contributed to 68% of the fish extinctions in the past 100 years, and the decline of 70% of the fish species listed in the Endangered Species Act

http://biology.usgs.gov/s+t/noframe/x289.htm

Aquaculture must work closely with federal, state, and provincial regulators to control epizootic disease outbreaks, to prevent the release of exotic species into the wild…

http://www.invasivespecies.gov/laws/codecndct.shtml

There are plenty of other references out there. This is a billion dollar problem.

Cheers, Nathan
 
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I understand, I'm studied aquaculture, and I'm well versed on invasive species around the world in freshwater environments.
Now, show me an instance of a pathogen being introduced into the ocean and cuasing a problem. Not caulerpa either - not an invasive species, a pathogen.
 

npaden

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Here's a little more detail on whirling disease:

Whirling disease is caused by a microscopic parasite that attacks the cartilage of some fish, such as cutthroat or rainbow trout; the disease does not appear to affect lake trout. Although the parasite may not kill the fish, the fish is unable to feed normally, which can result in starvation and death. Also, the whirling behavior of an infected fish makes it more vulnerable to predators, such as lake trout. Once the disease is present in a fish, it converts to a spore form which is released into the water when an infected fish dies and decomposes. Whirling disease spores can survive in this form up to 30 years or more until another appropriate alternate host, such as tubifex worms, is infected. This European disease was first discovered in Pennsylvania in 1956 and has now been confirmed in 21 states.

The microscopic spore can be easily transported through water sources from another area; mud on boats, waders, or other fishing gear; fish entrails; birds; other live fish from another area; aquatic plants or weeds; or other unknown methods.

http://www.nps.gov/yell/planvisit/todo/ ... irling.htm

Did you catch that part where it can stay dormant for 30 years and then be transported simply from some mud on a boat?

We really didn't know much about whirling disease just 10 years ago until it really started spreading fast and now it may be too late for some of the best trout fishing in the world. I don't want to find out about some disease that could have been prevented from spreading in the ocean simply if some hobbyists had not introduced some non-native pathogen into a new eco-system.

Pretty scary stuff to me.

Nathan
 
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Cool. I think this is apples to oranges.

I still know of nothing that a hermit can trans. from my tank back into the ocean. If there were something trans. back to the ocean what makes you think that it would not become a quick snack for our local bacteria or micro pred.? I think this is all academic and reactionary. When someone releases Snakeheads into a warm water lake sure big problem. Hermits cought in my yard - to my tank - then back to beach, I find hard to believe, will cause any problem. I will say again, just because it is possible does not mean it is probable.
 
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npaden":1i3qp1vx said:
Here's a little more detail on whirling disease:

Whirling disease is caused by a microscopic parasite that attacks the cartilage of some fish, such as cutthroat or rainbow trout; the disease does not appear to affect lake trout. Although the parasite may not kill the fish, the fish is unable to feed normally, which can result in starvation and death. Also, the whirling behavior of an infected fish makes it more vulnerable to predators, such as lake trout. Once the disease is present in a fish, it converts to a spore form which is released into the water when an infected fish dies and decomposes. Whirling disease spores can survive in this form up to 30 years or more until another appropriate alternate host, such as tubifex worms, is infected. This European disease was first discovered in Pennsylvania in 1956 and has now been confirmed in 21 states.

The microscopic spore can be easily transported through water sources from another area; mud on boats, waders, or other fishing gear; fish entrails; birds; other live fish from another area; aquatic plants or weeds; or other unknown methods.

http://www.nps.gov/yell/planvisit/todo/ ... irling.htm

Did you catch that part where it can stay dormant for 30 years and then be transported simply from some mud on a boat?

We really didn't know much about whirling disease just 10 years ago until it really started spreading fast and now it may be too late for some of the best trout fishing in the world. I don't want to find out about some disease that could have been prevented from spreading in the ocean simply if some hobbyists had not introduced some non-native pathogen into a new eco-system.

Pretty scary stuff to me.

Nathan
Yeah, it is scary. :?
 

npaden

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Here's an article specific to the marine environment.

Although the importance of pathogens in terrestrial ecosystems has been long recognized
(Grenfell and Dobson 1995), the role of diseases in most marine communities is comparatively
unknown (Peters 1993, Richardson et al. 1998, Harvell et al. 1999). This paucity of information
is surprising given that the ocean is a “microbial soup” supporting an immeasurable abundance
and diversity of potential parasites. Although it is clear that diseases can have significant impacts
on marine species and communities (Harvell et al. 1999), what is lacking is a basic
understanding of the full range of roles diseases play in the ocean.

In some cases, particularly virulent disease outbreaks may drive host populations below a
threshold from which they cannot recover, or can do so only at a very slow rate. A particularly
well documented example of this is the Caribbean-wide die-off of the long-spined sea urchin,
Diadema antillarum, in the early 1980s (Lessios et al. 1984). During this epidemic, which was
caused by a pathogen of unknown identity, the entire Caribbean population of D. antillarum was
reduced by approximately 98%, providing a spectacular example of the transmission potential of
a novel, virulent marine pathogen. Within a year, the pathogen, apparently dispersed by major
surface currents, affected approximately 3.5 million square kilometers.

There are at least two ways in which climate change and human activity can increase the
emergence of new diseases: i) by increasing the rate of contact between novel pathogens and
naïve hosts,
and ii) by altering the environment in favor of the pathogen.

Emphasis added by me. Here is the entire article - http://www.eeb.cornell.edu/harvell/publ ... kimdob.pdf

It might be a strech to say that the pathogen that wiped out the long spined urchins was introduced by a hobbyist but there is the possibility. Or ballast water from a ship. But who knows?

I think it is a pretty cavalier attitude that we can chunk something back into the ocean that has just been in direct contact with a species that there would have been no possibility of it being in contact without human intervention.

As stated in the article this is an area that is just now starting to be studied in any depth at all. That was just the first article that came up on google. Not like I had to search high and low for it. This is a real issue and it is going to get worse as long as people don't feel like it is a big deal. Let's take a little responsibility for our actions.

FWIW, Nathan
 
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JimM":2ygf75js said:
npaden":2ygf75js said:
Here's a little more detail on whirling disease:

Whirling disease is caused by a microscopic parasite that attacks the cartilage of some fish, such as cutthroat or rainbow trout; the disease does not appear to affect lake trout. Although the parasite may not kill the fish, the fish is unable to feed normally, which can result in starvation and death. Also, the whirling behavior of an infected fish makes it more vulnerable to predators, such as lake trout. Once the disease is present in a fish, it converts to a spore form which is released into the water when an infected fish dies and decomposes. Whirling disease spores can survive in this form up to 30 years or more until another appropriate alternate host, such as tubifex worms, is infected. This European disease was first discovered in Pennsylvania in 1956 and has now been confirmed in 21 states.

The microscopic spore can be easily transported through water sources from another area; mud on boats, waders, or other fishing gear; fish entrails; birds; other live fish from another area; aquatic plants or weeds; or other unknown methods.

http://www.nps.gov/yell/planvisit/todo/ ... irling.htm

Did you catch that part where it can stay dormant for 30 years and then be transported simply from some mud on a boat?

We really didn't know much about whirling disease just 10 years ago until it really started spreading fast and now it may be too late for some of the best trout fishing in the world. I don't want to find out about some disease that could have been prevented from spreading in the ocean simply if some hobbyists had not introduced some non-native pathogen into a new eco-system.

Pretty scary stuff to me.

Nathan
Yeah, it is scary. :?

I will tell you what is scary, thousands of people trudge through our yard every summer heading to the beach. they come from all over the country/world. Who knows what kind of develish bugs and bacteria that might be hiding in their bathing suits from whatever exotic locations the wearer might have come from! Lord knows what is in those speedoes the fat, old European men seem to prefer!!
 
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Oh yeah, I got $75.00 store credit for 150 h/c. I got a nice Pavona, female lyre tail anthias, bag of salt, and some scary blue leg hermits.
 

npaden

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LOL, that is true Andy. That last article I linked had specific references to seals getting distemper from dogs in Antartica and getting the flu from Humans!

For instance, canine distemper virus was thought to have been introduced into crab-eating seals in Antarctica by contacts with infected sled dogs used for an expedition (Bengston et al. 1991). Recent outbreaks of canine distemper have occurred in Baikal and Caspian seals, although the source of infection is unclear (Mamaev et al. 1995, Kennedy et al. 2000). Other examples include detection of human influenza virus in seals, although the virus also could have been acquired from birds (Hinshaw et al. 1984). More than 400 mostly immature harbor seals died along the New England coast between December 1979 and October 1980 of acute pneumonia associated with influenza virus A (Geraci et al. 1982).
Influenza B virus was recently isolated from harbor seals in the Netherlands, 4-5 years after the serotype was prevalent in an outbreak affecting humans (Osterhaus et al. 2000).

I'm probably over-reacting and I doubt your actions are going to do any harm but I just feel that I would personally rather be safe than sorry.

FWIW, Nathan
 

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