to fatal morgana from newbies thread

[Anonymous]

....
More power to ya. Just please stop stating your beliefs and misunderstandings as fact.

Tell you what, I'll state my beliefs and you state your's. After they are both facts to each of us.

 

[Anonymous]

When something as bad as copper in tank water is removed to ocean levels with a small amount of plant life in a few weeks I am not worried about TDS.

The copper will have adheared to most surfaces or adsorbed by microalgae in the tank within hours so a few weeks for the macro to reduce levels is going to be a bit late.

To me it is about a system that maintains fish and corals..

You have proven many times over that your system cannot maintain most reef animals long term. So why do you attempt to convince others that your way is better?

I would much rather have the system maintain itself without my interferrence.

By maintain itself do you mean replace the dead livestock with live ones every 6 months?

Here are some of your own posts about your tank just in the past 2 years. You have killed more livestock in two years than most reefkeepers do in their entire lives.

my another yellow tang (in the same tank) 2 months ago only lasted 2 weeks.

I did add a single clown during my initial cycle and did not have sucess.

A month later I removed them as they were dieing or dead already.

My cycle molies appeared to be almost indestructable. 5 adults in 55g plus 20-30 babies. They only died when ammonia pegged the charts after i removed dead anemonies.

The brittle lasted about a month.

Started last oct, crashed thanksgiving.

I had similiar problems with fish getting white sports and slowly deterioriating with heavy breathing then finally dieing.

fish died and decomposed for 4 days

Especially the finger which is now gone.

The wound never healed and the madrin only lasted a week longer.

Yes I did lose three flame anglefish. As I have stated fish were dieing. Those deterioriated and developed ich as the others that died did. Yes I have lost fish. Fish do die in my tanks. Fish will die in the future in my tanks.

 

[Anonymous]

That's just depressing. :?

I mean, we all have lost fish or other animals at one time or another, but that sounds callus almost to the point of bragging. :? :|

 

[Anonymous]

....
More power to ya. Just please stop stating your beliefs and misunderstandings as fact.

Tell you what, I'll state my beliefs and you state your's. After they are both facts to each of us.

That is not how facts work.
Just because you want something you believe to be a fact doesn't make it so. The evidence for some of your beliefs is non existent - yet you persist in pushing them as if they are true even though you have been shown many times that they are incorrect.

You have shown time and again a basic, flawed understanding of oceanic processes, a propensity for circular logic and a willingness to twist science into something it isn't.

 

[HClH2OFish]

1)Plant life filtering water on the way to the ocean...these are freshwater plants which aren't in our saltwater tanks.

Yes they are.

Umm...no they *aren't* Are you now saying that the algae in my tank is the same as the freshwater plants in the rivers? Bob, your wrong. Again.

But that does not mean saltwater plant life is not effective in maintaining our tanks. Especially when WHO/EPA experiments predict that 1/10 pound of one algae would remove the equilivant of all the copper in a 55g tank filled with tap water from ~90% of the households in the US. So it would appear reasonable that a pound of our macros would bring copper down to ocean values in two months

You keep coming back to this...this was a test on an algae that IS NOT USED IN MARINE AQUARIA!!!!!! You can't simply say that because it works on one kind of algae it *will* work for another type...this is not proven.

2)Rivers flow to the sea -- this is true. So do factory spillpipes....I fail to see what point you're trying to make. My tapwater is processed just like most of America. I don't thing there are many reefkeepers hauling buckets down to the banks of their river to fill em up.
From what I understand most large cities use river water. I know that is true for New York City and my home town of Des Moines. Albuquerque, NM seems unique in using an underground aquifier. Tap water is processed to kill bacteria (chlorine, chlorimne), prevent copper contamination (phosphates), and remove impurities. The result is items like:

chlorine which dissapates rapidily or chlorimine which breaks down to chlorine and ammonia. both when removed from the plumbing, exposed to air, and turbulated,

ammonia, nitrates, phosphates which are plant food. IME 20-40ppm nitrates per week for instance.

parts per billion of nasties like copper, which are easily absorbed by active plant life.

Then the water we use in our households are treated with plant life and returned to the river to flow to the ocean and maintain the ocean

Again, you are greatly reducing what is actually done to try and prove your argument. It doesn't matter where the water in your tap comes from. It is treated for certain things and not treated for others. What flows from your tap is not what flows into the ocean. Period.
In an area with high fertilizer runoff, the water going into the ocean will have very high nitrates and phosphates - REGARDLESS OF 'PLANT LIFE FILTERING' as you keep trying to state.
This runoff is detrimental to the area where the river empties and is causing many areas of die off for various reasons, one being algal blooms which can deplete the oxygen in the water to the point where other life simply can't survive as the water becomes anoxic.... There are many other factors as well, but it's pointless to go into them as you won't entertain anything that points our your inaccuracies anyway.

4)Your point on the 'kryptonite' is easily turned against your own argument. Water runoff is very typically polluted with many different things. It's a sad but true state of the world. Pull any water quality report and if they have bothered to test those things that *aren't* normally mandated, you'll be surprised at the amount of things in your tap water.


So what? who cares if us humans are suprised? The questions is if plant life can maintain the oceans and our tanks. the answer is yes.

That's not the point Bob. You yourself posited, in the post that my questions were a response to, an argument about things in low quantities being in the water. Plant life doesn't uptake everything...sorry if you disagree due to your years of fishkeeping. The simple fact is it *doesn't* uptake everything the way you keep saying. There are different rates of uptake on different things in the water, and these can and do vary according to species and conditions. And once the plant life has reached a limit on uptake, these same things that are now in the plant begin to get put back into the tank.

I am also glad you agree that tap water is controlled and mandated. I just don't feel it is necessary to do further processing for our fish and corals to poop in. And the tap water is tested daily be thousands or millions of people each day. Where as your ro/di unit at home isn't.

I never said it wasnt' controlled or mandated. Neither has anyone else.
The fact that you don't feel further processing is needed is a clear cut expample of your inexperience with reef tanks.
Your comment about tap water being tested daily by thousands or millions of people and RO/DI unit not? This statement simply comes across as ignorant. How many people do *you* know that test their drinking water? I can't think of anyone aside from reefers. And RO/DI not being tested? You really seem to have no idea what this technology is/does or how a reefkeeper uses it. *EVERY* reefkeeper I know uses a TDS meter to determine when the membrane needs replacing. I'm sorry Bob...your arguments are becoming more and more laughable as you continue to try and defend your position.

These questions are in response to your numerous posts stating that you are using the same water that runs to the sea, filtered by plant life, therefore you don't need to do anything but run the tap on cold water >1min and all is golden.

No I state tap water filtered by plant life

That's what I meant. Thinking that your plant life will get *all* the bad things out is wrong. They may be able to remove enough things for a FO tank, but a reef tank is a much more complex environment. And advocating plant life w/tap water as being more stable is simply bad reefkeeping advice, and bad husbandry. Regardless of your results.

 

[Anonymous]

(snipped for space)
You have proven many times over that your system cannot maintain most reef animals long term. So why do you attempt to convince others that your way is better?

Long term survival and overall health of your tank's inhabitants is the true definition of "success" in this hobby.

 

[Anonymous]

Again, you are greatly reducing what is actually done to try and prove your argument. It doesn't matter where the water in your tap comes from. It is treated for certain things and not treated for others. What flows from your tap is not what flows into the ocean. Period.
In an area with high fertilizer runoff, the water going into the ocean will have very high nitrates and phosphates - REGARDLESS OF 'PLANT LIFE FILTERING' as you keep trying to state.
This runoff is detrimental to the area where the river empties and is causing many areas of die off for various reasons, one being algal blooms which can deplete the oxygen in the water to the point where other life simply can't survive as the water becomes anoxic.... There are many other factors as well, but it's pointless to go into them as you won't entertain anything that points our your inaccuracies anyway.

HCL, I couldn't agree more. As I have posted before, I used to live in a home in the middle of farmland that had well water. Every spring, the runoff from the fields into the acquifer would cause the quality to plummet. How do I know? I had the County test one of my wells every three months for two years and you could see the results change.

Now I live in a metro area. The tap water quality also varies from day to day. How do I know? I tested the water.

But, don't take my word for it ... From the Natural Resources Defense council website:

http://www.nrdc.org/water/drinking/usci ... ntents.asp

These Items were found in Municipal Water Supplies*

Rocket fuel -- perchlorate, harmful to the thyroid and possibly carcinogenic -- is in the water of 20 million Americans. At times high levels have been measured in Los Angeles, Phoenix and San Diego.

Lead, which can cause brain damage and decreased intelligence in children, gets into drinking water from corroding pipes and faucets; Boston, Newark and Seattle exceeded the national action level for lead

Germs, including coliform bacteria and Cryptosporidium, a microscopic disease-carrying protozoan. NRDC's study found that many cities should be concerned about their water supply's vulnerability to such contamination.

Arsenic, recently judged not safe at any level in drinking water, is still present at significant levels in the drinking water of 22 million Americans.

NRDC's study revealed that periodic spikes in contaminant levels are on the rise, a sign that aging pipes and water-treatment facilities often can't handle today's contaminant loads (for example, after a major storm or an industrial spill). In recent years, Atlanta, Baltimore and Washington, D.C., all issued boil-water alerts in response to such spikes.

Right-to-Know Reports
For three straight years (1999-2001), the covers of Washington, D.C.'s right-to-know reports blared "Your Drinking Water Is Safe!" but the city's water had significant levels of chlorination by-products, lead, bacteria and an unexplained spike in cyanide.
When Newark, New Jersey's water failed to meet the EPA's action level for lead, its right-to-know report buried a health warning and detailed information on the situation deep in the report.
Phoenix's right-to-know report failed to mention violations of drinking water rules that the city had reported to the U.S. EPA; it also deeply buried crucial, required information about the health effects of arsenic and nitrates in the city's tap water in a small print footnote.

Source Water Protection
Cities that rely on river water sources can be vulnerable to pollution from farms, industrial sites, sewer overflows, urban runoff, and spills.
Los Angeles, San Diego, Phoenix, and many other cities and towns rely heavily on the Colorado River for drinking water -- but the Colorado is inadequately protected and is laden with contaminants from agriculture, urban and suburban runoff, and industry (including the Henderson, Nevada Kerr-McGee site that leaks perchlorate into the river).
Groundwater supplies can also be vulnerable to contamination. Fresno's groundwater is becoming seriously compromised by agricultural and industrial pollution, including nitrates; Albuquerque's groundwater is overtaxed and threatened by pollutants from numerous sources.


* NRDC surveyed the following cities: Albuquerque, NM; Atlanta, GA; Baltimore, MD; Boston, MA; Chicago, IL; Denver, CO; Detroit, MI; Fresno, CA; Houston, TX; Los Angeles, CA; Manchester, NH; New Orleans, LA; Newark, NJ; Philadelphia, PA; Phoenix, AZ; San Diego, CA; San Francisco, CA; Seattle, WA; Washington, DC.

There is a ton of data on that website with regard to how bad tap water really is. I think I'll keep my $120.00 R/O system.

 

[Anonymous]

Yep guy's post is depressing.

And typical Guy on me.

The truth is that dispite what Guy says, environmental engineers harvest macro algaes from the ocean to check to see if copper polution is present in the ocean. So obviously, macro algaes to absorb copper even if everythign else does.


And 90% of the fish losses were before I added plant life to my system.

The yellow tang added a couple of weeks before adding macros was showing all the signs of the previous yellow tang. White spots and all. That tang is now 1 1/2 years old, recovered from the white spots and fine.

And all the coral losses were before nitrAtes went to 0.0.

So I have had losses. I have had one and only one crash about a month after I started the tank. Since adding plant life there have been no crashes, and fish fish have lived for over a year. And since nitrates are 0.0 the corals are spreading.

All Guy has done is post my experience of why plant life is so important.

All from a guy maintaing a huge refugium stocked full of macros and xenia.

 

[Anonymous]

(snipped for space)
You have proven many times over that your system cannot maintain most reef animals long term. So why do you attempt to convince others that your way is better?

Long term survival and overall health of your tank's inhabitants is the true definition of "success" in this hobby.

Agreed. That is why my plant life full tank's inhabitents have lived for years and years.

 

[Anonymous]

Bob, why are you ignoring my post about tap water quality issues? Are you saying that "plants" will take substances like arsenic and jet fuel?

 

[Anonymous]

hclh2ofish:

why do we not make it short and sweet.

My position: tap water filtered by plant life is suitable for any aquarium including reef tanks.

You don't believe that than just say you don't believe that. And post your experiences and test data. No need for long dissertations.

For instance IME plant life consumes 30-40 ppm nitrAtes per week.

 

[Anonymous]

hclh2ofish:

why do we not make it short and sweet.

My position: tap water filtered by plant life is suitable for any aquarium including reef tanks.

You don't believe that than just say you don't believe that. And post your experiences and test data. No need for long dissertations.

For instance IME plant life consumes 30-40 ppm nitrAtes pre week.

Again, why are you ignoring my post about tap water quality issues? Are you saying that "plants" will take substances like arsenic and jet fuel?

 

[Anonymous]

Yep guy's post is depressing.

And typical Guy on me.

I don't know the history there, and don't care to. What I was addressing was the tone of the quotes. If they are accurate, that tone spoke to me that you showed no regard for the health of the creatures in your care.

The truth is that dispite what Guy says, environmental engineers harvest macro algaes from the ocean to check to see if copper polution is present in the ocean. So obviously, macro algaes to absorb copper even if everythign else does.

Apples are fruit. Oranges are fruit. Since oranges are a fruit, obviously they must taste identical. Can you see the fundamental flaw in your logic??

And 90% of the fish losses were before I added plant life to my system.

The yellow tang added a couple of weeks before adding macros was showing all the signs of the previous yellow tang. White spots and all. That tang is now 1 1/2 years old, recovered from the white spots and fine.

As with most of your 'evidence', this is completely anecdotal, and in no way shows that the algal life in your tank was in any way remotely responsible for your tang's recovery.

And all the coral losses were before nitrAtes went to 0.0.

So I have had losses.

That comes across with that attitude of uncaring again. Don't know if that's what you intend, but I for one take it quite personally when one of my animals dies, even if it's just a snail. I don't say, "So I lost it, so what." AGain, don't know if I'm misreading your tone or not though, that's just how it comes across.

I have had one and only one crash about a month after I started the tank. Since adding plant life there have been no crashes, and fish fish have lived for over a year. And since nitrates are 0.0 the corals are spreading.

Again, anecdotal evidence. It may or may not be related to the algal life.

All Guy has done is post my experience of why plant life is so important.

All from a guy maintaing a huge refugium stocked full of macros and xenia.

For the umpteenth time, NOBODY is saying that a refugium stocked with macros and xenia is a bad thing!!!! For cryin' out loud most of us are agreeing that macroalgaes can be a valid nutrient export system. I have a DSB refugium with 2 species of macro algae myself. :?

 

[Anonymous]

Agreed. That is why my plant life full tank's inhabitents have lived for years and years.

First you say a year, then you say a couple months, now you say years and years. Which is it?

 

[Anonymous]

hclh2ofish:

why do we not make it short and sweet.

My position: tap water filtered by plant life is suitable for any aquarium including reef tanks.

You don't believe that than just say you don't believe that. And post your experiences and test data. No need for long dissertations.

For instance IME plant life consumes 30-40 ppm nitrAtes pre week.

Again, why are you ignoring my post about tap water quality issues? Are you saying that "plants" will take substances like arsenic and jet fuel?

I am not ignoreing anyposts about water quality issues.

If you do not think plant life will absorb toxins like arsenic, jet fuel then you don't think that. I do.

Hopefully your tap water does not have arsenic and jet fuel at levels detrimental to humans and beyond EPA limits.

My point is that tap water filtered by plant life is suitable for any aquarium.

Your points are simply off the subject.

And do not justify pushing RO/DI or otherwise processed water on newbies.

 

[Anonymous]

And 90% of the fish losses were before I added plant life to my system.

This is evidence of absolutely nothing.

The yellow tang added a couple of weeks before adding macros was showing all the signs of the previous yellow tang. White spots and all.
That tang is now 1 1/2 years old, recovered from the white spots and fine.

Again, you have nothing here.

So I have had losses. I have had one and only one crash about a month after I started the tank. Since adding plant life there have been no crashes, and fish fish have lived for over a year.

Planted refugeums are a fine addition to a marine system, many of us including myself use them. We understand they are a tool, useful but not necessary. Your arguments supporting their use however are flawed, ignorant, sometimes just plain deceiving. Furthermore your empirical data so far on these matters can fit in a thimble. One reaches a certain point after a time in this hobby where he or she is qualified to answer questions, give advice, and speak with a certain level of authority. This person has hard earned knowledge gained over years of experience. This thread is filled with them. Righty for instance has been very patient with you. Then there are those that lack experience, AND multi dimensional knowledge of how these things work, AND useful empirical data and need to be asking questions, NOT answering them. You are VERY confused as to which group you belong in.
Most of us learned very fast that tap water causes problems in a system very quickly. I look at your tank, and it LOOKS like you've been adding tap water. It's a mess. Get rid of the tap water and the associated phoshates, and you don't need as many plants - has that even occured to you? :?
This is getting silly.

Jim

 

[Anonymous]

Agreed. That is why my plant life full tank's inhabitents have lived for years and years.

First you say a year, then you say a couple months, now you say years and years. Which is it?

both :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

hclh2ofish:

why do we not make it short and sweet.

My position: tap water filtered by plant life is suitable for any aquarium including reef tanks.

You don't believe that than just say you don't believe that. And post your experiences and test data. No need for long dissertations.

For instance IME plant life consumes 30-40 ppm nitrAtes pre week.

Again, why are you ignoring my post about tap water quality issues? Are you saying that "plants" will take substances like arsenic and jet fuel?

I am not ignoreing anyposts about water quality issues.

If you do not think plant life will absorb toxins like arsenic, jet fuel then you don't think that. I do.

Hopefully your tap water does not have arsenic and jet fuel at levels detrimental to humans and beyond EPA limits.

My point is that tap water filtered by plant life is suitable for any aquarium.

Your points are simply off the subject.

And do not justify pushing RO/DI or otherwise processed water on newbies.

You just refuse to admit that you may indeed be mistaken Bob.

To paraphrase your last line: And do not justify pushing your methods off on newbies as fact.

 

[ChrisRD]

Bob, do yourself a favor and buy a book...

Here's a list from our library:http://www.reefs.org/library/reading/beginner/beginner.html

I'd particularly recommend the ones by Tullock and Fenner.

 

[HClH2OFish]

hclh2ofish:

why do we not make it short and sweet.

My position: tap water filtered by plant life is suitable for any aquarium including reef tanks.

You don't believe that than just say you don't believe that. And post your experiences and test data. No need for long dissertations.

For instance IME plant life consumes 30-40 ppm nitrAtes per week.

OMG...I cannot believe you Bob. Why don't we make it short and sweet? And now asking *ME* for data?

I'm *not* saying I don't belive you can use tap water for a reef. Never have. What I *HAVE* said is IT IS NOT SOMETHING YOU SHOULD ADVOCATE TO NEW REEFERS AS IT IS NOT A FAILSAFE FOOLPROOF METHOD

Your frequently ignore questions posted to you and when you don't have an answer you simply resort to the above type of post. Where is *your* data..you don't have any and simply state that your opinion is your fact.
You keep pushing it on new people and keep confusing people on these issues.

Based on the tone and misdirection in your answers and your constant shying away from straight answers simply tells me what I was afraid of at the start...you're a troll...nothing more. A slightly more educated troll, as you seem to know the buzzwords.

Hmm...since that's my opinion I guess that makes it fact then by your logic. :lol:

*yawn* and now I'll be back to work, and not losing anymore time trying to help you learn something...can't teach trolls.

I wonder how long you'll last on *this* board....


BTW, as for my 'dissertations' lol...everybody here knows I'm long winded...sorry I had to make you break out your dictionary a few times too many.

/rant off


To Len -- apologies for the slight rant. I just have a low tolerance for ignorance.